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So this is the question what bothers me since at about 7 years. Can
the human civilization keep going this way?

I talked about it in the *** damn school topic before, now i decided to
create one just for this. The thing on what this got in my mind was
that i red about online suicide pages in today's news, and this is
again something what shows up that someting is terribly wrong in our
so - called civilization. Partially because there are people committing
suicide, and partially because i think they are being treated like
criminals.

Why is somebody treated criminal if (s)he wants to kill her/himself? It
is his/her own life! Of course it is not the best to leave it going,
but police and the law should have nothing to do with people triing to
commit suicide. The answer seem to be somewhere in the aging society.
The most important upkeepers of it are young people (between age of 10
and at around 35) since they are the consumers, and later the producers.
When people reach the age when they can retire, there is nothing what
urges them to keep on working even if they would be able, so youngers
have to keep up them. This only can be kept running by a constant
increase of the number of humans since number of retired people
increases too. So no matter how youngs have to be "produced", and kept
alive to keep the society functioning.

An other side is the capitalism and it's consequences. The producing
facilites have to sell at least a constant number of product to keep
themselves and their workers up. This would be nice this way, but there
is the race between them in all aspect, and there is no manager who
would be content without expanding and increasing revenues. So they
sell more and more, and the same time increase their technology level.
This last makes a circle since then the rivals will do the same. Now
things seem to screwed up so much that only the massive advertising
keeps on the need for many products. The other side, the development
of technology is against this the same time by reducing the amount of
human work needed to produce the same thing, so it reduces the
purchasing power. The other aspect of this is that more and more
knowledge is needed to be able to do the job what is known by the
society, so they stuff youngs into schools and universities at all
costs (this happens in Hungary). The overuse of these facilites degrade
the quality of education what in one side makes the qualifications they
give losing their value, and the other side by not giving the needed
knowledge it not serves the need of modern producing facilites (this
also happens here too).

The result of this is already visible in the increase of China for
example where because of the low wages outdated technologies can be
used effectively while making recession in the so - called well -
developed countries. Here an other aspect is the unemployment: it is a
constant problem while there are many places what would need workforce
(both including hi - tech jobs and ones like street - sweeping).

If these things keep going this way the technology may outrun the
alibities of the society in two mayor aspects: first there will be less
and less people being capable catch up with it and develop the high -
end, and the same time the need for new so - called better products
degrades since people will not have enough purchasing power, and will
not want to get them either since they can not really use them
(Nowadays without advertising and the influence of crowd on youngs in
schools i think for example the sells of mobile phones would drop with
at least 90%).

If what i said is at least partially true there should be a world
recession involving every well - developed countries sooner or later.
And if there is a world recession, the same thing may happen like after
1929: it might lead us into the third world war, what might be between
a block involving USA, Europe and Japan against one leaded by China and
India possibly with some African countries involved.


With these i did not went to the side of sentiments. Capitalism is in a
massive depression at this side by it's literal sense too. Why people
want to throw away their life? Why psychiatric treatments are needed?
Why people wanting to save the nature, or at least keeping pets? This
is all something what would not be usual in a balanced well - going
society. You need to go school, learn, the same time disapprove it for
the usual amusements of teens and follow the mode at all costs, later
run for job, then keep doing almost the same you did in school. If you
want to take part in this consumation led society, you have to give up
all your life for it, never tell the truth, be blind and buy the first
thing what you see in the TV for credit, then be proud of it for a week
or a month, then shallow everything at work since you need the money to
pay off it while your car's credit is still there for your entire life.
If you say no like me, then be prepared to never be accepted, be
prepared to run away, hide, and to keep on a worthless fight forever
since the truth beside the lies of media will never have the rights.


So this is what i think. Can it go this way?
Once i made a drawing based on this, not a really big thing, but i liked
it so i think i will make it again as a bigger and better picture. Here
is it (the 3rd image on that page):

http://rcs.fateback.com/rca/draw/index.htm



(Sadly since i have not got a scanner it is hard to get them in my
compo)

Of course i do not really think that we can stop a world war if it has
to come, i would just like to know if there are others who believe in
such things, or if not, then why they think that the society can, and
will go withouth problems. So this would be a discussion topic where at
least i will not try to offend and pursue somebody for her/his views,
just a peaceful discussion (it is bad to say that in Hungary peaceful
discussion about politics and anything what can have any relation to it
is just a dream since long years. I just mentioned the above partially
because of this, and because of that here there are people who afraid
about telling their views - possibly because of not really "fair"
discussions?).

Quote:The result of this is already visible in the increase of China for example where because of the low wages outdated technologies can be used effectively while making recession in the so - called well - developed countries. Here an other aspect is the unemployment: it is a constant problem while there are many places what would need workforce (both including hi - tech jobs and ones like street - sweeping).

China has a huge work force. Their leaders are smart enough to let everyone invest in their economy. The investors benifit due to cheap labor and low production costs while the Chinese benefit from the infrastructure development and cash inflows into their country. The chinese don't exactly use outdated technologies

Quote:If these things keep going this way the technology may outrun the alibities of the society in two mayor aspects: first there will be less and less people being capable catch up with it and develop the high - end, and the same time the need for new so - called better products degrades...

hasn't it been always this way?

Quote:since people will not have enough purchasing power, and will not want to get them either since they can not really use them (Nowadays without advertising and the influence of crowd on youngs in schools i think for example the sells of mobile phones would drop with at least 90%).

That isn't true. As we get develop technologies, we make processes more streamlined, the production costs go down, the quality goes up while making the end product better and cheaper. But that can't be said for all Chinese goods. Also, hasn't advertisement always been a powerful tool to influence minds of young people (rather everyone)? The trend continues...

Quote:If what i said is at least partially true there should be a world recession involving every well - developed countries sooner or later. And if there is a world recession, the same thing may happen like after 1929: it right lead us into the third world war, what might be between a block involving USA, Europe and Japan against one leaded by China and India possibly with some African countries involved.

Well, I really don't think the third world war would ever occur in the conventional way. For example, in WWI and WWII none of the countries had nuclear weapons. It was only at the fag end of WWII that the USA was capable to deploying a nuke. Thats what ended the war. Currently, USA, France, Russia, India, China all have nuclear weapons of which only Russia and USA have ICBMs. Everyone of these countries understand the implications of a nuclear war of which I guess the Russians have the best understanding due to the Chernobyl disaster. Anyway, so these countries are highly UNLIKELY to enter into a conventional arms conflict with any nuclear power. It's only rogue countries like Pakistan, Syria, Iran.... may indulge into a "war". It's impossible that a 3rd WW will be ever lead by China & India since historically these two nations have never been on good terms with each other. China is proliferating nukes to Pakistan while Russia has always been a friend of India. Japan has already seen the "effects" of nukes on its soil. So it prolly wont indulge into a war. Basically, what it boils down to is that it's in every nation's interest to befriend as many nations as possible since its good for it economically and socially. If at all there is a war, it may be an "electronic" war or a cold war. But a conventional seems highly unlikely...

I wanted to get a little more posts before i answer, but you seem to afraid a little
of this thing, or probably i went a little deep with it. As i said i want to talk
about these in a peaceful way, so do not afraid. If everybody would keep in him/herself
what is wrong then the society would be even worse than now. So i say: let's leave it
coming out, and at least feel making a better world through it.

TheBigBasicQ: i exactly waited for something like this, you really gave me the work
So here are my answers:

With China you was right, but it is a certainly important thing that they actually work,
no matter how qualified are they, while in well - developed countries people rather live
on social payments. They would not accept those jobs for such a low wage what Chinese
people are doing. So this makes a source of recession there on what they can not really
overcome.

I would have a few words to "quality". The family's new computer is at the service second
time although it was bought a half year before while my good old P233 had not got any
hardware problem since 6 years. It is true that they make cheaper and better products,
but they shorten the lifetime to make sure they will buy again. This greatly indicates
that disaster is in the air since that "better" is not really true, and has the cheapness
any value if somebody already has the product? (Of course "better" is true by the meaning
that the product is able to do more. But in the usual life less and less can be really
used effectively by usual people. It supports this too that many new technologies
recently are simply being forgotten since there is no need for them)

"But that can't be said for all Chinese goods": then why are they being sold so well? Of
course mostly because their damnned cheapness compared to well - developed countries'
products, but sometimes because of that people simply not really need the extra what the
better product gives.

With the war your thougths seem to be true as i thinked about it again in that it will
not be like an usual war. There might be real war, but in it the two blocks would not
try to completely defeat the other since as a last word they might drop nuclear, or
possibly worse, biological bombs on the "victorious". But as long as both blocks not
fear of a complete defeat, and they would not because of the above, they would keep on
the war with usual old weapons. Nobody wants to occupy a deserted land being unuseable
for fifty years until the radiation disposes, so their interests would make them not
using too destructive weapons, and the other side would know this (since it applies to
them too). So this would be really something like the cold war, lasting as long as one
of the two forces slowly defunct.
At the other side i think you are not true. Nobody would say that the Soviet Union will
fight on the same side as the USA when the second world war broke out. The countries i
said had problems with each other in the past, but if they find themselves on the same
side against a strong enemy, they would give up that. And if things are going on this
way if a recession breaks out in well - developed countries since it will be there, the
boundaries of the two force will instantly appear, and all important country will know
where it belongs.


Finally what was Rebellion in the topic's title? Although in that many thing i wrote i
forgot to mention a possibly other end: if capitalism falls in such a huge recession
what i think will happen, people will possibly rebel because of the conditions and the
traditional leaders there, and the thing might end up in a world - wide system change.
I do not try to predict what would be after, possibly communism again, possibly
something else, since these things are just predictions and thoughts what not have to
happen exactly this way. But i believe that something now is terribly wrong what can
not last for more than ten to thirty years without a massive change. Although i am not
really involving it, but i think it is the most horrible on the sentimental side, much
worse than how Chinese products are being sold or not sold or the like.

It's not that we're afraid.. it's just that the topic isnt interessting enough to warrant reading rhrough all the text..

Quote:But i believe that something now is terribly wrong what can
not last for more than ten to thirty years without a massive change.

i kind of agree with you...


...if you replace the word "wrong" with, perhaps "unstable"

I'm with Z!re on this one -- we're impressed, you can fit the text of the bible on a grain of rice. Could you summarize your points a bit more and be a LOT less verbose? I can't reply with anything else because if I try to read the philosophy of the world above, I'll be an old man and WWII will be over by the time I'm done.

SC: Well, I dont wanna pick out every point this time. But its sufficient to say that China mass produces cheap goods which compromises on the quality and durability of the products. When I buy any good, I make sure its manufactured in my country or I make sure that its either Korean or Malaysian. These industries in Malaysia and Korea still manufacture high quality goods which last long . Chinese motorcycle manufacturers tried to launch their vehicles in our market but were "kicked out" by our government since they couldnt pass the safety regulations or the pollution tests. It's safe to say, they were not only unsafe but also used to "stink" :lol:

When I read your rather "long" post, it gave me a feeling that you had a lot of "Anti Chinese goods" sentiments. Well to tell you the truth, make informed decisions and not buy chinese goods because they are cheap. Some goods may cost you a bit more but they are worth it .

As for the war, I can tell you there are a lot of intrests at work here so if there was a WWIII we wouldn't know whos with whom until it really breaks out...

Yes, you are a little true with "Bible on the rice", i like writing lengthy posts.
I think it would be hardly understandable if i dealt with it in a few words, but
as people currently eating "fast food" by it's all means, i will try it:



So the sorthest is:

If things are going on the way currently are going, there will be a massive
recession within ten to thirty years what will end up in some sort of world war
later.


Bit longer, since i would like to discuss on those "things" what are going on, not
that muddled theory that what will probably happen:

Problem 1: A completely confused society. This is because of the way we are living,
and our so - called ethics what we are triing to force on ourselves and mostly on
everyone around us.

Problem 2: Capitalism's consequences. Higher technology, more, and better products
while the society can not catch on with it: less people is able to develop high -
end, less workforce is needed, so purchasing power degrades, so the need of these
products. The same time people can not really use up the new features of that
technologies gone damn too high.

Problem 3: While it goes on with Problem 2 in well - developed countries, in China
for example people are working no matter for how low wages, so the thing is going
unlike in well - developed countries.

Problem 4: School lost it's real role, it is mostly for keeping up capitalism a
bit longer by making mindless crowds from kids who can be greatly influenced by
advertisements so force their parents to keep the consumation level high. This
way it is against the need of higher technology so it indicates a source of
recession.


I think i not really can write this shorter, hope i did not left out anything
important. Of course i did not say that if you are not interested come and make
pointless blabbing here, but i thought that at least a few ones around here is
interested.


TheBigBasicQ: You hit the point with "stink"ing I am not really against them,
if somebody buys such things then it will be his/her problem. Everyone knows
that Chinese stuff is that. It was more annoying for me when we bought that
damned computer which was partially supported by the government and it is in the
service - again (And they said that they are so expensive - people paying them
by the tax this way - because they are built from quality products). Well, this
was a little off from here...

With WWIII it can be true what you say as it is just a theory. But as countries
develop nowadays the blocks seem to appear the way i told what i think can only
be changed by some extremely dramatic thing (Look at my Victory or Defeat topic:
the same thing seems to appear now between the two blocks like what i told about
there).

I've noticed the same sort of thing, except I percieve a greater attempt(and larger success) to create a paradigm shift towards a management/service dominated banana republic in the west. This will continue to happen, and money will continue to flow into the Chinese economy through the cheap, relatively skilled labour they have there. Before long, the Chinese economy will dwarf all others.

Then they'll unhinge the Yuan, which is currently pegged at about 7 yuan per US dollar, and the sheer volume of their economy will make the US, which has abandoned the foundations upon which it is founded, go into convolutions right away. The current situation of Americans controlling cheap chinese workers will flip over right away.

Except this time, the Americans won't be in any position to take back their manufacturing mantle.

I think this topic dead because it was based on something in what everyone agreed...
As i said above i did not posted it for the theories, rather for what do you think
about the world now. And in this as nobody really disagreed, it looks like that any
further discussion became pointless.

Is not this some sort of sorrowful thing? Our civilization seems to die over us, and
we are not doing anything about it (By this "we" i did not mean just that 5 to 10
QBN-er who actually red this, but the whole collapsing society).