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Black holes violate the second law of thermodynamics, if you define the black hole to have a certain constant size. (things leaving the black hole must be considered as energy/not-the-black-hole/information)

Consider a beam of light aimed at a black hole. As a set of objects in a physical system, the interactions between these two objects must increase entropy in the overall system.

Separately, we know that gravity should act the same in all directions. A black hole, then, should be completely identical in each sphere "slice". In other words, the black hole would be physically identical from all angles if you were somehow able to rotate it.

The second law of thermodynamics tells us that the entropy of a system must increase over time. Assuming that:

*(1) second law of thermodynamics is correct.
*(2) gravity is not biased towards any "side" of the universe. (read: theory of relativity is correct)

Then, we are forced to conclude that something leaves completely from the influence of the black hole's gravity to increase the entropy of the system.

This something would need to be no more than a single particle (probably), and it would exit at either exactly the opposite end of the black hole or exactly where it entered. (so as not to violate [2])

So I do not know where it exits or what size the exiting particle or set of particles is, but if it is one particle that exits either at one or the other end, and we knew how to configure the initial stream of light to do so (so we knew where it would go eventually), then this crackpot would be correct:


Wikipedia:

Quote:On 21 July 2004 Stephen Hawking presented a new argument that black holes do eventually emit information about what they swallow, reversing his previous position on information loss. He proposed that quantum perturbations of the event horizon could allow information to escape from a black hole, where it can influence subsequent Hawking radiation [8]. The theory has not yet been reviewed by the scientific community, and if it is accepted it is likely to resolve the black hole information paradox. In the meantime, the announcement has attracted a lot of attention in the media.

Suppose they don't have a certain constant size? Suppose they do grow as stuff falls into them...

That is the most popular theory - as a black hole absorbs matter it becomes greater in diameter. I think Stephen Hawking mentions this in "A Brief History of Time".

What I mean is that you cannot consider something that goes into a black hole and then gets out far far away as part of it.

Quote:The second law of thermodynamics tells us that the entropy of a system must increase over time.

Incorrect. The second law states that the entropy of an isolated system must increase over time. Black holes aren't isolated, as they keep on receiving matter and energy.

That's just weird to me. What if the velocity angle of anything that hits the black hole directly is just at the right/wrong angle to deflect it into infinity? Wtf is infinity anyway? We need to do some real experiments to check this kind of stuff. We really know nothing until then. Any guinea pigs? :lol:

Honestly, I think our equipment isn't nearly powerful enough yet. We don't know shit. :roll:

Ever heard of a quantum singularity with infinite mass? E=mc^2 argues that as something gains in mass, so does it's gravitational field. (This is aside from the speed of light matter.) The argument is, or probably used ot be, that a black hole's gravitational pull was so great, not even light can escape from it. But if the above presentation is correct, perhaps a black hole IS indeed a way to another "dimension", since it states that something must go somewhere.

Just thinking on the energy thing: energy can't be created nor dsetroyed. Does the same go for matter? And if so, where does it all go once in the black hole?

Time distortion also comes into play, but now it gets too complicated.

>anarky

matter can be created and destroyed, however vast amounts of energy come into play both times. think of an atom-bomb. or even subatomic accellerators.

remember that all matter is is simply energy condensed to a slow vibration.

so therefore, you can change the form of energy infinitely, but never create or destroy it.

assuming this, energy must go somewhere when entering a black hole... perhaps another dimension, but also perhaps somewhere within this dimension, yet very very far away (perhaps the effect of a wormhole within the black hole?)... i know very little on the subject, so any more speculation on this is beyond me.

Quote:Incorrect. The second law states that the entropy of an isolated system must increase over time. Black holes aren't isolated, as they keep on receiving matter and energy.

You don't know what you are talking about.

the total entropy of any thermodynamically isolated system tends to increase over time, approaching a maximum value.

The "isolated" part means (if you don't know what it means) that the total entropy must be measured from all the particles that interact in the system. In my example, these particles are from the black hole and the beam of light. In your example, adding more matter to the black hole does not make the increase in entropy of the previously defined system suddenly untrue.

Mathematically:
f(black hole, light, time1) = total entropy of my first example
f(other matter, (f(black hole, light, time1)), time2) = total entropy of more matter entering the system.

f(other matter, (f(black hole, light, time1)), time2) > f(black hole, light, time1)


Edit:
This actually brings to attention another issue. In order for any of this to be measurable, time must be discretely defined, otherwise you cannot limit the size of the system such that it does not include the entire universe.

It also brings another issue to light. A black hole by itself is unsustainable because the total entropy must increase.

I've read some about "Hawking Radiation", which is supposedly the solution to this mess, but I have yet to see a real explanation as to how this radiation happens. All the explanations I've read indicate some hocus-pocus method that just "happens" to solve the contradiction, i.e. a "virtual pair":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_thermodynamics

Ooh! Sci-fi is FUN!