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+--- Thread: death penalty (/thread-3242.html)
death penalty - aetherfox - 02-22-2004
You didn't get my point adosorken, it was just to illustrate what I wanted to say, GWB's hypocrisy. Freedom Fries? I mean, COME ON!
Whoever says that should be slapped with a dead salted trout. That will teach them.
death penalty - adosorken - 02-22-2004
I got yer point aeth...just tellin' ya what happens in reality when I hear that trash
Although I think the salted trout might work too...leaves a bigger stink than the lies we hear out of Washington.
death penalty - Rhiannon - 02-22-2004
You know, I think Jesus said it best when he said "Remove the plank from your own eye before attempting to remove the speck from your brother's eye". The US govt has a friggen log in its eye, and it's trying to remove the speck from Iraq's eye. Why do I say this? Well.....first of all, after 9/11, hundreds of Arabs and Muslims were arrested and imprisioned without any rights, no phone call, no lawyer, no trial. Then we get the great Patriot Act, which allows people to be treated in the very same way these poor Arabs and Muslims were treated. There are 10 states in the US with a 13-17% poverty level, and ten states with 28% of children under 5 living at poverty level. Puerto Rico has a overwhelming 40-50% poverty rate, and I'm not talking about too poor to go to Mcdonalds, I'm talking poor as in washing your clothes in the river, living in a shanty and doing dishes in a bucket kind of poor. (Yet the funny thing is that there are over 53,000 Puerto Ricans that are somehow involved in the military, whether it be reserves or active). Money is being taken from public schools to be used for vouchers. Healthcare benefits have been cut. Money is being pumped into a war that will only benefit a few, the petroleum companies. Yet the US govt rushes out on its white horse to "save the world from terrorism" when noone in the world really supports us. I think we should point at our own president first (not mine tho, i cant vote for him) and fix our own problems before going to "fix" other people's problems.
death penalty - PlayGGY - 02-22-2004
Well, equating the Patriot Act (which I don't like, by the way) to the torture chambers and mass graves is a bit over the top, eh?
And we do have a problem with our economy: too high taxation and regulation. However, our "bad" economy is not only the best in the world right now, but it is also the fastest growing (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,3604,1142714,00.html).
I don't know about Puerto Rico, but you have a more socialist state than we do (even though you are "part" of us), so I am not suprised to know that the economy there sucks.
And if there is nothing wrong sending people's money to pay for other people's education in government schools, what is the problem with sending that money to private schools?
death penalty - Rhiannon - 02-22-2004
Socialist....wtf are you talking about? Puerto Rico is a commonwealth, look it up. And I do have a problem when my money goes to a select few so they can be educated in a private, and especially in a religious school.
death penalty - PlayGGY - 02-22-2004
Quote:Socialist....wtf are you talking about? And I do have a problem when my money goes to a select few so they can be educated in a private, and especially in a religious school.
I knew you wouldn't adress the first part of my post.
8)To adress your response:
I said that Puerto Rico is more socialist than the States, which is true. Higher taxes, much more regulation on businesses, and (I don't know this for a fact) probably more welfare programs.
About vouchers:
The money isn't going to a select few, they would go to whomever wanted to go to a private school. What is wrong with giving people a choice?
death penalty - na_th_an - 02-22-2004
That a country has much money doesn't mean that it "goes well". I mean, you can see some arabic countries whihc are really rich but they are full of poor people. It is more a matter on how money is distributed.
And socialism doesn't have to suck. It saved my country from the 3rd world 20 years ago. We are now going to a more and more capitalist system that I don't like at all. Spain is richer, but not 'cause everyone is richer, but 'cause rich people are richer. That's what happens with high developed countries: They can be extremely rich countries full of poor people.
As I've said many times, it is a matter of common sense. I prefer a poor country with less differences rather than a rich country with big differences. When we were at a fairly more socialist state (in the first and mid 80s), my country was slowly developing but things were cheap and everyone could afford them. Surely we were not strong economically and our money didn't cost a shit, but I liked how you could trust on the government to have your basic services (health, protection, communication, etcetera). Since 1996 we are in a right-wing government that does and praises full capitalism. Our president likes to suck Bush's ding-dong and we got even involved in that nonsense war to find mass destruction weapons that didn't even exist (funny how that has turned with time in "we went there to save the Iraquis"). Well, since then, my country is becoming stronger in the world, but inside our frontiers we live exactly the same. What does that mean? Who wants that kind of development when I cannot see it? Now prices are extremely high (sometimes with 80% to 140% of increase since we use Euros!)... that sucks.
And that comes to illustrate my theory. Is really capitalism a good deal? why? As I see it, capitalism consist on high-developed countries leeching low-developed ones, suck their resources and become richer. Don't you know that we (developed countries) are TO BLAME of the starvation and poberty in Africa?
![[Image: propaganda_shutmouth.jpg]](http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/apr03/propaganda_shutmouth.jpg)
death penalty - Rhiannon - 02-22-2004
Hence the money is going to a select few, else why no just make every public school private, hmm?
As for the socialist part, taxes here are not high, (Massachusetts has insane property tax, California sales tax is around 8%, are they socialists too?) and businesses are loosely regulated.
As for your smartass crack about addressing the first part of your post, the Constitution is a sacred document which the forefathers established in order to prevent idiots like GWB from trampling on our rights as citizens. How would you like it if you were taken from your home, tossed into a jail cell, chained hand and foot like a beast, and abused and tortured by jail guards without having the chance to make a phone call, call a lawyer, or even have a trial? I bet you wouldnt like it huh? Well neither did those Arabs and Muslims, who were supposed to be protected by the same Constitution which GWB lovingly trampled with his Patriot Act. Hilter was looking for a pure race, and convinced his army of this ideal. GWB wants world domination, and is using US and UK soldiers to feed his own greed and those elite few who will benefit from this so called war, which is more of a slaughter than a war. How many UK soldiers have died from "friendly" fire? How many US soldiers have lost their lives senselessly? Hundreds.
Then of course we have Afghanastan. Poor people were bombed to death, and then left at the mercy of opium druglords. The country is in shambles, and the people are dead in life, with no way to feed themselves or their children, no way to obtain a better life. Wow, that sure makes me want to vote for GWB in 2004 :roll:
death penalty - PlayGGY - 02-22-2004
Quote:That a country has much money doesn't mean that it "goes well". I mean, you can see some arabic countries whihc are really rich but they are full of poor people. It is more a matter on how money is distributed.
Yes, then no.
In those countries (India is included), the government owns nearly everything. That sucks. They stole it through taxation.
Quote:And socialism doesn't have to suck. It saved my country from the 3rd world 20 years ago.
Have you noticed that all of the dirt poor countires are are socialist? You couldn't name one that isn't. And have you noticed how all of the rich countries are capitalist? And have you noticed that all of the countries with huge economic troubles (and ready to tank, like Germany), are increasing the governments presence in the market? Socialism doesn't work, and doesn't help economies. Capitalism has made us the richest country in the world, with possible the lowest unemployment in the world (5.8%, which is high for us right now). It is also helping China, who is finally easing restrictions on capitalism.
Quote:As I see it, capitalism consist on high-developed countries leeching low-developed ones, suck their resources and become richer.
I am going to have some fun with this one: Give me an example where our business exploits people in third world countries. They don't! They employ them, when no one else would! In other words, the third world countries gain wealth from having more jobs, and we gain wealth from cheaper products.
You must not understand capitalism. It is simply an economic system that rewards investment of money and time with profit. No exploitation. That isn't to say American capitalism is perfect: we have tons of regulations, high taxes, and government run monopolies, all of which drain our economy. But in America there is a sense that other countires really don't have: that taxation is stealing. So in the long run, we are bound to free up our markets from excessive government intervention.]
death penalty - Agamemnus - 02-22-2004
Quote:And that comes to illustrate my theory. Is really capitalism a good deal? why? As I see it, capitalism consist on high-developed countries leeching low-developed ones, suck their resources and become richer.
That's not the case at all. If you look at the cold, hard, facts, in the recent decades capitalist developed countries have accelerated the growth of developing countries everywhere in the world where the market has been open to opportunities.
The reason that many African and South American countries did not grow at all during this period, and continue not to grow, is because of stability issues. Regardless of the reason for instability in many African states, it is there.
The equation for growth in a developing country requires stability and capital, especially from foreign sources. Removing capitalism from the picture now will remove the equation altogether. What must and is being worked on is stability. Once the stability is there, development will follow.
Unfortunately, it is rather difficult to get stability in many parts in Africa, as it is a gun-soaked region.