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death penalty - Zack - 02-20-2004
Precisely. The Roman disaster destroyed the knowledge of the pronounciation, I believe - or at least, around that time.
death penalty - PlayGGY - 02-20-2004
I am certainly for it... my only problem with it is the fact that innocent people could get convicted.
On the other hand, they could also be falsely convicted and be sent to jail for the rest of their life. Even if they are released 10 or 15 years later, those are 10 or 15 years gone from his life. Plus, death penalty cases come under much more scrutiny from the media, so a mistake, though still possble, is more unlikely.
It really comes down to this: Should someone who has raped, brutally tortured, then killed his children and wife, should we the taxpayers be forced (at gun point, actually) to pay for his food and shelter for the rest of his life?
death penalty - Zack - 02-20-2004
I am with you on that on, PlayGGY. But it is true that if someone is ever wrongly convicted and sentenced to death, it is indeed terrible.
My idea would be that there has to be a set "assurance level" - that is, there have to be a level of confidence in the evidence above which issuing of the death penalty would be allowed.
Like, if the person is caught standing above the murder with a knife dripping blood, and 2 eyewitnesses...then yes, death penalty could be issued.
But if you go down to relying on if the guy dropped his business card there and his fingerprints are on the victim's shoes...then no, that isn't very solid evidence.
death penalty - Rhiannon - 02-20-2004
Diroga:
I would like to address your post, not necesary a criticism, more like an extension of what you have said. As a person deeply immersed in pedagogy, surrounded by teachers and living with one, and coming from a long time of teachers, I would like to offer the following insights.
We have all heard the argument that private schools are better than public schools and how their scores on standarized tests are higher, etc. Ok. One thing that should be made clear is that you cannot compare public and private schools because of these (and other) factors:
Private schools are free to accept or reject any student. Students deciding to enter a private school usually need to take a proficency test, participate in an interview, or any other method that will weed out any "bad" students. Hence, they can have the cream of the crop in their classrooms. Public schools dont have this luxury. They are required under law to accept any and every student that comes to their door. Also, private schools can decide not to accept students with learning or physical disabilities (unless it is a school specifically for disabled children, like schools for the blind and deaf). Public schools must accept these students and provide for them, providing them with the same quality education as a "regular" student gets. Hence, which private schools can take their money and dedicate it to teaching their students and paying teachers good salaries, while providing them with materials, equipment, and small classes, public school teachers must settle for less, with a lower salary, huge classes (sometimes 40 or more students) and little support from parents. Parents with children in private schools will care about their children's education becuz they are paying for it. Many times in public schools, teachers have to double as babysitters, substitute parents, disciplinarians etc., which leaves less time for teaching. Private schools can simply expell any problematic student, public schools must do everything possible to correct the problem.
So, after weeding out "dumb" and "problem" students, and any other student that would take too much resources, private schools can freely dedicate themselves to teaching and imparting a quality education. Public schools are left with everything else.
Now, dont think that just becuz private schools give a "better" education, that the teachers are somehow better. Studies have shown that US public school teachers are equally or more qualified than private school teachers. Many public school teachers have at least one to two BAs, some with MAs, and a few with PhDs. This is no small potatoes. A PhD isnt exactly something you order from a catalog. I know of private schools that have teachers without certifications or a BA.
So Diroga, in a way you are correct. Money wont make a better teacher. However, if there is a better environment somwhere else, where you have a better chance of keeping your sanity and reaching retirement, i'm sure you'd go, which is what is happening to US public school teachers.
As for standarized tests, they prove nothing more than the ability to answer (or guess) a multiple choice test, and how well you memorize shyt. They dont prove what you learned, or how you apply that knowledge, which is part of what the real purpose of education is.
death penalty - Diroga - 02-20-2004
How do people get PhD's BA's or MA's? Taking tests most the time, right? By your reasoning tests = "they prove nothing more than the ability to answer (or guess) a multiple choice test, and how well you memorize shyt." therefore PhD's BA's or MA's are meaning less. Ok I was playing around with that
but think about it. What Iâm saying is that you need to create incentive so that the teacher with those PhD's BA's or MA's can be gathered up at a school to make it have higher potential of educating. That makes sense right? The more educated PhD's BA's or MAâs teachers you have the âbetterâ they should be. PhD's BA's or MA's are good but you donât need one to be educated enough to teach someone. It shows you should be able to teach.Yes it is hard to compare public school to private school.
Parents need to care about their kids. Public schools need to raise the bar on standards too. If students donât do work, act accordingly and are not productive then they are wasting time and money therefore should not be in school. The alternate? Well send them to some other place. I know it sound bad but I canât think up any thing at the moment, doesnât mean Iâm not concerned for them. The government is not meant to be reasonable for parents to raise their kids the right way, but has to deal with them because of poor parenting.
If a public school is short on paper, they should have paper; give them the money for the paper. If they donât have enough cookies in the teacher room then donât give them money to buy cookies. You fallow? Over crowding of schools need to be dealt with. The simple answer is build more schools get more good teachers. Iâm for that. It seems that schools keep asking for more money, they get it, but nothing happens! Thatâs my side of it.
death penalty - Agamemnus - 02-20-2004
Rhiannon: what you say about the "weeding out process" is probably true for many private schools. However, it still remains a fact that pouring money into a publick school doesn't give you results: it gives you more "stuff" and more over-paid administrators.
All those TVs, computers, etc, etc, etc. are worth nothing without an incentive to use them. Technology spending can be especially wasteful: I have seen it. A private school, however, would not dare waste its resources without using them to its full extent.
It is both economic theory and a fact that I have experienced in my (private) middle school. Our computers were not high-tech at times, but everything was utilized to full power. IE an old apple computer fitted with the LOGO language (SP?) and an old LEGO construction kit. In a public school, the LEGOs may just have rotted somewhere and the LOGO may never have been even installed.
Also I would like to mention that higher levels of funding <> smaller classes. My (private) university sometimes has huge classes, and sometimes tiny classes, and cannot distribute its professors properly, it seems. The reason for that: I (or someone else) got in, started taking classes, paying money, pursuing a degree, etc. and now it is less viable to switch to another university just because of that.
On the other hand, in my middle school, the classes weren't small and often did have all of our grade (7th or 8th) in one room! It didn't matter, though, because there were no "discipline" issues as occurs in a public school with large classes...
Quote:Private schools can simply expell any problematic student, public schools must do everything possible to correct the problem.
I find that highly amusing as it is again completely contrary to my experience.
Quote:So, after weeding out "dumb" and "problem" students, and any other student that would take too much resources, private schools can freely dedicate themselves to teaching and imparting a quality education. Public schools are left with everything else.
That's just your hypothesis, but I wouldn't call it a fact. In my high school, a great deal of resources was devoted to disabled students, which I applaud. "dumb" students, though? They are often segregated from the smart students in fact by the varying levels of difficulty in classes. Yes, "problem" students also drain resources (ie: group discipline issues), but there is still no evidence to back up your claim. I have had "problems" with other students in my private middle school, so don't think private schools are immune to this.
Also, what you said about the quality of the teachers is correct. Many good teachers exist in the public schools. The problem is not the teachers, the problem is public.
death penalty - SCM - 02-20-2004
I know a women who taught in private schools for many years. She recently started teaching in public schools. She was delighted with the change. She sees her new coworkers as professionals, and is learning from them despite her many years of experience. Public school teachers are credentialed. They have been taught to teach. Private school teachers are not required to have teaching credentials.
I work as a substitute high school math and science teacher. I am fully qualified in subject matter, but I am not half the teacher that many experienced public school teachers are. Not all public school teachers are great. Not all are even good, but you will find many of the best teachers in public schools.
Why would private schools score better than public schools? A lot of it has to do with the home. Almost all parents of students in private schools are going to support their education. That is the reason they put their kids in them, and they are paying directly for their education. The students peers are also more likely to value academic success. In public schools, teachers have to teach those that want to learn as well as those that don't. In some of these cases, if you contact the parent of a student that is having or being a problem, you find that they are more interested in their child being right than their child learning. As Rhiannon wrote, teachers often have to be baby sitters. It can take a lot of time away from teaching.
death penalty - PlayGGY - 02-20-2004
Right now we have "beyond a reasonable doubt" as the guilt measure.
death penalty - Rhiannon - 02-20-2004
Quote:How do people get PhD's BA's or MA's? Taking tests most the time, right? By your reasoning tests = "they prove nothing more than the ability to answer (or guess) a multiple choice test, and how well you memorize shyt." therefore PhD's BA's or MA's are meaning less.Uh.....i think you missed what i said. Standarized tests are for the schools, aka elementary, middle and high school. Once you are in college, evaluation is different. Also, in the MA and PhD level, there are usaully little to no tests. The evaluation is done with papers, reflexive work, portfolios, presentations, etc.
Quote:Ok I was playing around with that
In the public school system, a BA in pedogogy and in a certain concentration (elementary education, science, english, etc) is required in order to be certified to teach in a school. Teachers who are not certified can be substitute teachers, but cannot teach in a regular classroom.
Quote:Yes it is hard to compare public school to private school.
Parents need to care about their kids. Public schools need to raise the bar on standards too. If students donât do work, act accordingly and are not productive then they are wasting time and money therefore should not be in school. The alternate? Well send them to some other place. I know it sound bad but I canât think up any thing at the moment, doesnât mean Iâm not concerned for them. The government is not meant to be reasonable for parents to raise their kids the right way, but has to deal with them because of poor parenting.
Many discipline problems are caused by boredom. Vocational schools could solve this problem in its mayority, but in some places these schools dont exist.
Quote:If a public school is short on paper, they should have paper; give them the money for the paper. If they donât have enough cookies in the teacher room then donât give them money to buy cookies. You fallow? Over crowding of schools need to be dealt with. The simple answer is build more schools get more good teachers. Iâm for that. It seems that schools keep asking for more money, they get it, but nothing happens! Thatâs my side of it.
Becuz of standarized tests, many poor performance schools are getting less money, and higher performance schools are receiving more money. Also, there have been massive educational budget cuts becuz this money has been redirected to the military and other "federal programs" that Bush has decided that should receive money. Schools just dont demand money and automatically get it. Have you ever done a project proposal for Title I, V or other federal program? The requirements and processes are so lengthy it'll make you cry.
Aga:
Obviously i am not comparing every private and public school. There are exceptions to the rule. I was in a private catholic school for a year, and I received a decent education. I went to public school almost all my life in Texas, Florida and PR. I remember when Daddy Bush decided to do the whole voucher thing, affecting the school I was attending, which was a special public school for advanced students. Most of what the school had was through corporate donations, and not govt funding. Vouchers werent very helpful at all and we all protested against it.
As for private universities, they are no longer under the scutiny of the govt, hence are free to do what they like as long as they follow federal regulation in terms of usage of the pell grant and other federal helps for students. Since attending universities is by choice, you accept whatever you pay for in that uni. You cant compare private schools and private colleges.
As for discipline problems in private schools, there are discipline problems everywhere. However the problem is amplified in public schools becuz of the population difference between a public and private school. A private school may have the number of students that one grade has in a middle or high school.
As I had said before, federal law requires schools to give everyone a free education, no matter what. If a student is suspended or expelled, the parent can push hard to make the school board overturn their decision. In a private school, they arent subjected to a school board, and by being a private organization, they are allowed free association with whomever they please, and there isnt a damn thing the govt can do about it. As for evidence, you can just look up articles in educational journals, there are plenty that address this issue.
death penalty - Diroga - 02-20-2004
Quote:A lot of it has to do with the homemoral, values, THE BIBLE :king:
Quote:Uh.....i think you missed what i said. Standarized tests are for the schools, aka elementary, middle and high school. Once you are in college, evaluation is different. Also, in the MA and PhD level, there are usaully little to no tests. The evaluation is done with papers, reflexive work, portfolios, presentations, etc.ok i get. i was just playing with words really.
Quote:Many discipline problems are caused by boredom. Vocational schools could solve this problem in its mayority, but in some places these schools dont exist.yes, i know a guy and that was the solution for him. they are getting more popular
Quote:Becuz of standarized tests, many poor performance schools are getting less money, and higher performance schools are receiving more money. Also, there have been massive educational budget cuts becuz this money has been redirected to the military and other "federal programs" that Bush has decided that should receive money. Schools just dont demand money and automatically get it. Have you ever done a project proposal for Title I, V or other federal program? The requirements and processes are so lengthy it'll make you cry.
is any of that true?
ok so here's a novel idea privatize education. take the positize sides of both public and private education and merge them.