Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...

[Agamemnus]

I don't think locking a post is an appropriate way of conceding defeat.

[Jocke The Beast]

Nathan: Sorry for the big delay, but here are some of my answers/thoughts on your reply:

But what would you think if americans would have take over your country to install whatever?

If I had lived in a country that had a dictator who had used chemical weapons on us and a goverment that was a total dictatorship...I would be very happy if americans would come to us and install democracy too.

You forget the Israeli assasinations. They also kill.

Yes, they kill. They kill Hamas terrorists (and yes, sometimes innocent people get killed too, but the different is that the Israel army doesn't have that as their goal, it's a very sad output). On the other side the Hamas terrorists (and all the other terrorists) attacks more civilians then military targets.

Not true. If you follow the links I provided you'll notice. In Spain, there are two TV channels that don't offer mangled info, so we can see the conflict from the two parties' point of view. Israel kills civilians. That's a fact that can't be refuted.

I'll get back to this issue, must read your links first...

Where are those pretended mass destruction arms?

The search isn't over yet, but yes I agree that it's a bit alarming that no such weapons have been found yet.

Completely agreed. But that doesn't imply America taking over a country.

To say it like that is to exaggerate a bit. America (and the coalition) isn't taking over Iraq, they're arranging so that the Iraq people can have a democracy with elections and be free at last.

[toonski84]

okay, oracle, pay up, it turned into a flamewar

[Agamemnus]

Says you. Who are you to be the judge, jury, and executioner? :o

:lol:

[adosorken]

I agree. Once the insults start to fly, it has gone from a debate to a flame fest. This topic needs to be locked.

[Agamemnus]

Does it only "need" to be locked because of everyone's inane arguments against everything I say?

[RST]

No, it needs to be locked because some people, you included, have started attacking other people rather than their arguments.

And also look at the first post and see if you can find any similarities between it and your debate. To say this thread has gone off on a tangent is understatement.

[Agamemnus]

No, I haven't. And, look at the posts that cause me to respond with what I do. People are combining various issues into one. I can't just ignore untruths when I see them.

[na_th_an]

We could just get along, confide in Aga and SJZero leting the thing be, and keep with (IMHO) a great topic with great arguments. I was enjoying the arguing before this became a definitions war. To clarify things, just take that Marx book outta the shelf and read it on

Yes, they kill. They kill Hamas terrorists (and yes, sometimes innocent people get killed too, but the different is that the Israel army doesn't have that as their goal, it's a very sad output). On the other side the Hamas terrorists (and all the other terrorists) attacks more civilians then military targets.

Yeah, sure their efforts are against Hammas terrorists, but they are something a bit out of line and somewhat random. That's why so many innocent people die. That's why I call those actions terrorism as well, 'cause when Sharon decides to strike they put big tanks over poor neighbourhoods that destroy whole houses leaving many innocent people murdered or homeless. Attacking Palestinian territories with war planes and bombing them 'cause it's said that Hammas activists hide in there is also a monstruosity. If you go there to hunt terrorists, don't bomb an entire neighbourhood from air. "Collateral Effects" are just too much here. That is called terror as well, IMHO.

Actual facts:

19 May : Israeli troops killed a Palestinian child and wounded 14 others north of Gaza Strip.

16 May : A Palestinian youth was killed Friday early morning during a Israeli military onslaught on Rafah city, east of Gaza Strip.

15 May : Israeli occupation forces gunned down five Palestinians during the second deadly Gaza Strip raid in as many days.

14 May : Israeli occupation forces (IOF) killed early Wednesday three Palestinians and wounded more than 30 others in two separate incidents south of the Gaza Strip. The three killed were Palestinian policemen shot by Israeli undercover units.

12 May : Three killed in Rafah and Khan Younis and another in Qalqilya.

9 May : A Palestinian toddler was killed Wednesday when Israeli tanks opened fire at residential neighborhoods in the southern Gaza Strip town of Khan Younis.

3 May : Israeli forces kill UK cameraman James Miller in the Gaza Strip.

1 May : Israeli forces kill 15 Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza during a major punitive incursion.

21 April : A Palestinian schoolboy was shot dead in Qalqilia.

20 April : Israeli forces shot dead 7 Palestinians in a major military incursion into the West Bank.

18 April : Three Palestinian children were shot dead by Israeli forces in Rafah.

16 April : Israeli forces carried out an extra-judicial execution of a suspected "terrorist" in Hebron.

13 April : Two Palestinian civilians were killed, one in Hebron, one in Gaza.

12 April : Tom Hurndal, with the International Solidarity Movement, is shot by an Israeli sniper and lies brain dead. Later, when his parents come to visit him in a Gaza hospital, Israeli troops deliberately fire on their car.

10 April : 13 Palestinians are killed in Gaza during another Israeli punitive incursion.

9 April : Seven Palestinians are killed and dozens injured when Israel forces fire on civilian areas from U.S.-supplied F16 fighters and Apache helicopters.

[Agamemnus]

I read that na_th_an. Firstly, the major problem with something like this is that it cannot be proven true by an internet source. I could just go and say "oh qbasicnews.com is a terrorist front for radical islam" and would the US gov't go and "shut it down"? Prolly yes, but that's not exactly my point, harhar.

Second of all. Second of all. There is a difference between being killed on purpose and being killed in the crossfire.

How often does this website report terrorists crossing into Israel? What are soldiers supposed to do? They don't know why a person jumps over a fence and runs over to the other side. They don't want to get killed by a suicide bomber. Sometimes civilians, often stupid civilians, get killed. Same goes with rock throwing or slingshots.

How is an Israeli soldier supposed to know in a split second whether that particular Palestinian has a gun, a camera, or a slingshot? If you were put in this situation hundreds of times a day, where someone suddenly jumped into the street and was holding something that looked at a gun, how many seconds would you pause to look at it? Would you stick your head out of the tank? Quite a number of Israeli soldiers have stuck their heads of the tank, and paid a heavy price for their "consideration".