life kills and death sucks

[Ruudboy]

ok i just got bored at skool so whoops i'm sorry

[Flexibal]

megaman - armerican troops are positioned in iraq, not israel





[Flexibal>

[Jocke The Beast]

I agree with what you say Flexibal. I know this is a very difficult issue that can be discussed about forever but, I think that terrorist-attacks (by Hamas and other divisions) can not be compared with advanced military operation by the Israely army. Israel's attacks has always a object, and the object is never to hurt civilians (unlike Hamas who almost always attacks civilians).

[relsoft]

I agree with flexi here. I mean c'mon guys, using terrorism to further your ideals is not good.

"my religion is KINDNESS", Dalai Lama. ;*)

[red_Marvin]

I agree with what you say Flexibal. I know this is a very difficult issue that can be discussed about forever but, I think that terrorist-attacks (by Hamas and other divisions) can not be compared with advanced military operation by the Israely army. Israel's attacks has always a object, and the object is never to hurt civilians (unlike Hamas who almost always attacks civilians).

But still it's this revenge thing

groupA kills member of groupB because groupB killed member of
groupA because groupB killed member of groupA yestrday only
because groupA killed member of groupB...

[Flexibal]

no marvin, you are wrong. it's not vengeance.

when israel operates against this-or-that military group, it does not avenge the evil deeds this group has done. for this you have courts, and justice system. killing them *prior* to them killing your people is a precaution.

you know this man is planning to blow himself up in a matter of hours, and is on his way to get his explosives. now you know where he is... in matter of hours he could be anywhere. so will you wait and try to arrest him, and charge him with accusation? you can't find him then. so you must kill him as long as it's possible.

that's about targeted assassinations. and as for killing higher terrist officials - that's because they plan these attacks. if you let them live, let them stay in business, you know they will send their men to blow up in your country. so again, killing them is a precaution. preemptive measure.

when possible, israel does arrest people and charge them with accusations... but arresting a man like ahmed yasin, the leader of hamas, is practically impossible. you'd have to send a force into gaza, a million-people city, and find him. many more people will die in the attempt to arrest him - palestinians trying to stop israel, and israeli soldiers trying to arrest him. so... airstrikes are the only possible solution.



[Flexibal>

[oracle]

I don't know when you guys are gonna learn that the only way to stop this fighting is if you don't continue it. Israel must stop giving the Hamas and whoever else excuses to kill one another. If Israel stops attacking, and instructs the army to stop suicide bombers, but don't kill them unless they're definately gonna blow themselves up, look at what could happen! All of a sudden Israel would be seen as an outright good guy by the rest of the world (in NZ we get the impression that any killing in the middle east is as bad as the last), and the palestinians would become the "bad guys", bombing innocent people and doing terror attacks. Then the US (or UN) could start setting up peace talks, and you could get on the road to peace.

I think that the middle east badly needs some goodwill to get the people talking as opposed to fighting, and to get that someone over there is gonna have to start trusting the other lot, so you guys can get on with your lives.

I am in partial agreement with you, Flexibal. Your cause seems noble, but your methods need fine tweaking

[Flexibal]

oracle...

this is why i dont like to post about this subject. people tend to "simplify" it too much. people tend to get logics and reason into it, and then everything gets simple. but no. it's not simple and it cannot be simplified.

>> "If Israel stops attacking, and instructs the army to stop suicide bombers, but don't kill them unless they're definately gonna blow themselves up, look at what could happen!"

oracle, these men are willing to sacrifice themselves just to kill jews. what do you mean by, "stop but not kill...unless they're definately gonna blow themselves up"? - they are gonna blow themselves up. there's no question about it.

>> "Israel must stop giving the Hamas and whoever else excuses to kill one another"

again, they dont need a reason or an excuse. they need excuses only to convince the media about their cause... but it's reason enough that israel exists here. according to islam, the whole world is islamic lands. they have three categories for that: islamic lands (already controlled by muslims), war lands (currently islam is in war with their people), and neutral lands (currently at peace with islam, but ultimately islam will get them too). there's no compromise with that kind of thinking. they demand to become a muslim or perish.

it's not the settlements in the west bank, it's not the occupation. it's israel's very existence. it's not a "i kill you - you kill me" game, it's "i kill you until no one is left to kill me".

>> "Then the US (or UN) could start setting up peace talks, and you could get on the road to peace."

well, the UN sucks. at the lebanon border UN soldiers were positioned to keep hizbolla quiet, but they just sit idle and do nothing. three years ago, three israeli soldiers who were patrolling the area in a jeep were kidnapped by hizbolla militants which took them through a UN checkpoint, and the UN didnt even care.

so (a), the UN is worthless.

(b) the US is trying to inflict some sort of a peace settlement, but everytime this makes any progress, they blow up a bus or a restaurant or a mall.

© the arab world hates US, and do not see it as a neutral side that helps negotiations. they hate the US. didnt you see the footage of how palestinians danced in the streets in 9/11?

(d) with all due respect to the US and UN... israel is a sovereign country, and cannot allow for other countries to dictate what it will do. israel will not (and cannot allow itself to) become a puppet country ruled by others, because history has shown just how the world treats jews. for example, it's true that the US fought in WW2 and dramatically helped to defeat nazism, but would they enter the war just to stop the holocaust? i really doubt it. NOBODY FIGHTS FOR WHAT'S RIGHT, EVERYBODY FIGHTS FOR ITS OWN INTERESTS. when japan attacked perl harbor, US got involved, but until then, nada. and the same goes for britain and france. had hitler not wage war against them, they would stay out. (they declared war on germany when it invaded poland, but they did so because it was obvious they were next. they weren't just being friendly).







[Flexibal>

[Jocke The Beast]

Once again I agree with Flexibal.

oracle, these men are willing to sacrifice themselves just to kill jews. what do you mean by, "stop but not kill...unless they're definately gonna blow themselves up"? - they are gonna blow themselves up. there's no question about it.

This is the bottom-line here, these men will never stop hating the jews and they will never be satisfied...there "cause" is too deep...

[oracle]

>> "If Israel stops attacking, and instructs the army to stop suicide bombers, but don't kill them unless they're definately gonna blow themselves up, look at what could happen!"

oracle, these men are willing to sacrifice themselves just to kill jews. what do you mean by, "stop but not kill...unless they're definately gonna blow themselves up"? - they are gonna blow themselves up. there's no question about it.

OK then, I just thought that perhaps dramatic stand offs like we see on TV where palistinians have their hand over their heads and have a hundred guns pointed at them because they may/do have a bomb strapped to them is a wee bit confrontational, but I see your point. If they will kill, then so be it.

>> "Israel must stop giving the Hamas and whoever else excuses to kill one another"

again, they dont need a reason or an excuse. they need excuses only to convince the media about their cause... but it's reason enough that israel exists here. according to islam, the whole world is islamic lands. they have three categories for that: islamic lands (already controlled by muslims), war lands (currently islam is in war with their people), and neutral lands (currently at peace with islam, but ultimately islam will get them too). there's no compromise with that kind of thinking. they demand to become a muslim or perish.

Well then they must stop giving them excuses to use for the media... we hear so often of how "Israeli troops fired rockets into a marketplace today, killing 4, including a young palastinian girl, and wounding 16, while in (some other town) palastinian rebels killed two Israeli soldiers on patrol". That just seems tit-for-tat, unless every time Israel is firing rockets they are killing suicide bombers etc.

And I don't think that what you say about the "whole world being islamic lands" is true. They have absolutely no claim to America, or New Zealand. Perhaps just the land they explored in the past when they were a big nation is what they are talking about.

it's not the settlements in the west bank, it's not the occupation. it's israel's very existence. it's not a "i kill you - you kill me" game, it's "i kill you until no one is left to kill me".

And you know how that came about? That land was taken from them and given to you only 50 years ago. They view it as a form of theft. Now I am well aware that Jews came from that area, and so maybe it is their land first, but that doesn't stop the palastinians today feeling like the land was just taken from them because of some ancient past. We have a similar situation in New Zealand, where the Maoris were here first, and we came and made a treaty with them, then broke it. The only difference here is that a) The maoris aren't resorting to violence to "take back their land" like the palastinians and b) the european descended peoples are "honouring the treaty" by offering repiration (in the form of money, some land etc) to heal their greviances with us. So, was there a treaty between Israel and Palastinians, that said that Israel could just be "carved" our of their lands? Was it broken? What is the story?

>> "Then the US (or UN) could start setting up peace talks, and you could get on the road to peace."

well, the UN sucks. at the lebanon border UN soldiers were positioned to keep hizbolla quiet, but they just sit idle and do nothing. three years ago, three israeli soldiers who were patrolling the area in a jeep were kidnapped by hizbolla militants which took them through a UN checkpoint, and the UN didnt even care.

It's that type of attitude that is killing the peace process! What you describe is a mistake by the UN. I don't believe for a minute that they "don't care", what about their successes?

So in response to your points:

a) The UN's power has been greatly reduced by that idiot George Bush, but they are there to help.

b) Agreed. They are in the wrong here, but israel must not take revenge, instead they should "turn the other cheek". If they don't take revenge now, that's fine, but they must not in the future either way.

c) Yes, I did see the pictures. I don't agree with the US "interference" in the middle east, they alienated one side in favour of another, and now look at what has happened.

d) Israel is not considered a "sovereign country" by the Palestinians though. That's why they fight. As for the US not helping in WWII, it was not the US's concern, you are correct. You would not step in and help if all the Tao in China were being slaughtered, and other countries declared war on China in a similar scenario to WWII, unless you could see some advantage for yourselves, so your argument there is not so strong.

Remember, I'm on your side in some way because of some things about this mess, but against you in other ways. And that's probably the view of many people in the rest of the world. We get a different perspective where we're on the outside looking in, that's all.