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Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
#41
Quote:but 20, 30 years from now it will probably be a point in time like the alamo or perl harbor. because people move on and we cant change the past only prevent it from happening again.
History does have a strange way of repeating itself Smile
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#42
is it worht living in the past? no, yes we need to repect the dead and remeber what happened but it's not right to leave give up on the future for the past.
#43
Very true, Diroga...however, those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it, as the old saying goes. On the other hand, one who lives in the past will never have a future. One must learn the balance between honouring the past and creating the future.
I'd knock on wood, but my desk is particle board.
#44
I have a question. Why most of american people that have posted in this thread have such a blind confidence and respect about Israel? I really don't understand. There are two sides, and none of them is "the good one" nor "the bad one". That's a total lake of objectivism.

About the Israeli terror attacks you should go back to 1984 and 1985 and look at Libanon. Or the more recent: http://rwor.org/a/1202/awtwnsisrael.htm

What I want to picture is that Israel is not "the good guy" in the story, it is just as bad as its counterpart. The bad thing is... (now I quote an *objective* paper about the topic): «How did "tiny Israel" develop a modern economy, "make the desert bloom," maintain a European standard of living and field the world's fourth most powerful military--all within the Third World, surrounded by impoverished Arab people. The answer is imperialism: Israel is propped up, financed, armed and protected by the most powerful world power, the U.S.»

In my place, we see the confilct with different eyes. Palestinian terror attacks are horrendous and never justified, but we still support the palestinian cause (which has nothing to do/exists without the terror attacks) rather than the israeli cause. What most people understand here is that in the cold war the Israeli country was created by the americans ripping palestinians appart from their lands, this quote resumes the most widespread feeling here:

«We see a major military power--armed to the teeth and acting with the economic and diplomatic support of the U.S. superpower --against a poor people, poorly armed, under a brutal occupation.

We see the occupiers: an army that acts with no justice, carrying out collective punishment against a whole people, hell-bent on crushing any resistance.

We see the occupied people: driven from their lands by the Zionist Israeli state more than 50 years ago; driven to Jordan, attacked by the Jordan government in 1970, with U.S. and Israeli backing; driven to Lebanon, attacked by the Israeli army in Lebanon in 1982; resisting occupation in the West Bank and Gaza since 1967--refusing to be denied, resisting, re-asserting their cause.
»

And now I beg you something: In the past we could debate such kind of things without flame wars. We are intelligent people, let's just talk.
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#45
nathan youre right. Israel is not as innocent as the US portrays them to be, nor are the Palistinians as guilty as everyone points out. Terrorist is an act of terror, and if you want to go a little further, so is war. War spreads terror, and war kills both military and civilians. All these things are presented in the media almost in a movielike form, as if we were watching some hollywood movie (i'm sure those my age or older remember watching Desert Storm on TV) having us cheer for the "good guys" and watching them slay people. As one of my college profs once said, our society has developed a thirst for morbidness.

And while the media plays up the "war on terrorism", it turns a very blind eye towards two things 1) the positive things of society 2) the evils that still exist in the world that apparently doesnt qualify for Fox and CNN headline news. For example: slavery, underage prostitution smugglers, child abandonment, etc. I could go on for hours. Yet i bet few of you knew that slavery still exists in Sudan, or that in Eastern Europe and Central America children of both sexes (mostly female) at the age of 5 are kidnapped and smuggled across borders in order to be used as prostitutes. Not only that, how many kids are not used as drug mules? And for those who are about to say "Wow she's anti-american" In the great US of A, children still die of hunger, abuse and abandonment. Yet the US still sends money to Israel so they can bomb the hell out of the Palistinians. Great use of your tax dollars eh?

I believe it is time to move the focus away from the war going on, for every country to fix the problems inside their borders first, before charging off to other countries on a great white horse to save them. Let's save ourselves first.

(btw Zack, saying that someone is anti-Semitist becuz they believe that Israel is a terrorist nation is a little silly. There are prolly more Jews in America and Europe than there are in Israel. That would be the equivalent of saying that becuz the US calls Iraq a terrorist nation, that the US is anti-Islamic. Support of a race and support of a nation are two seperate things.)

(As for the lives lost in Turkey, may their god keep their souls safe Sad)
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#46
Rhianon you couldn't have expressed it better.

And ranting about the fascist Sharon and his policy is not anti-semitism. We are not talking about religion nor raze, but about politics. I have nothing against jews as I have nothing against christians nor muslims nor atheists nor whatever.
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#47
Well, we all have the right to are opinion...but does blowing yourself up with other Israelis in a bus justify anything?

Yehi R'tson sheHashem yavo shalom laOlam. Let it be god's will to bring peace to the world.
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#48
Nobody here's supporting suicide bombing. Look at Nate's earlier comments, that hasnt been suggested. What he is suggesting, however, is that Israel's done some terrible things in the past as well. My opinion of Sharon is alone reversed on the 1967 carpet bombings of Jordan when he was a general. That doesnt mean that Hamas is justified at all.

But this has been beat to death. C'mon, lets close the topic, flame war or not. We all have opinions, and yeah, pro-israeli people have a strong standpoint. They have to be scared everyday because violence happens so much, and Sharon or not, you have to expect the PM to take action.

I always love that word, "anti-semitism", because Arabs are a semitic people as well. It's like accusing a black guy of being in the klan. If you want to accuse someone of being racist against Jews, say that.
i]"I know what you're thinking. Did he fire six shots or only five? Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've kinda lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum ... you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"[/i] - Dirty Harry
#49
ALL WAR IS STUPID
'nuff said.

EDIT: It's fun being called anti-Semitic, anti-American, or hateful. It goes to show who the ignorant people are and who the knowledgable skeptics are.
I'd knock on wood, but my desk is particle board.
#50
flame wars, real wars, even star wars. You make a strong point there Smile
i]"I know what you're thinking. Did he fire six shots or only five? Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've kinda lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum ... you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"[/i] - Dirty Harry


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