My sister just lost 100,000+ pesos

[Zack]

Hehe...I've always thought it would be a problem, modifying one of those machines to take, say, all the money out of the users account...do it a few times before anyone starts noticing, then scram to Zimbabwe. :wink:

[oracle]

Apart from the fact that you'd be caught, Zimbabwe ain't a good choice right now... they got kicked out of the commonwealth because Mugabe is kicking out white farmers... another criminal...

[Moneo]

Have you guys ever heard of EFTPOS?

In New Zealand, you can get EFTPOS cards (Electronic Fast Transaction at Position Of Sale). You are not allowed to get into debt with them, but they go with your "current" account (ie the account you use for day-to-day stuff), so you can quickly pay for items directly from that account. Your card has a PIN number that you're not supposed to divulge, and you can cancel it at any time (eg. just after you've been mugged). ......

Oracle, from your description, EFTPOS is a debit card.

In the banking industry, EFT stands for Electronic Funds Transfer, so they cleverly used these popular 3 letters to mean something else.

POS means Point of Sale.

Most banks will issue you a debit card linked to a checking account, also referred to as a DDA (Demand Deposit Account) which, as you say, is a "current" account in international banking terminology.

Regarding not geting into debt with the debit card, well, some DDA accounts have "overdraft protection" which, with an approved line of credit, enables you to write a check, or debit your account, in excess of your balance, drawing on the line of credit. So it is possible to get into debt with such a debit card setup.

Most debit cards come with an associated PIN. This is so you can use the card at an ATM. Why most supermarkets and other merchants require you to enter the PIN at a keypad at the register, I don't know. You don't need to enter a PIN when using a credit card. Might be some banking requirement.

Here in Mexico City lots of people stopped carrying their credit or debit cards because they would get held up, taken at gunpoint to an ATM, forced to divulge their PIN, and the thieves would withdraw the maximum from the account.

I wrote to several banks suggesting that, by customer request, cards would be issued that would not be accepted at an ATM, and also that the cards would contain a legend to that effect. Just recently, one of the major banks here issued an additional card free to all its cardholders. The card is about one-third the size and can therefore not be inserted into any ATM, which has a mechanism to detect and allow only the standard card size. These little cards have had great acceptance by the cardholders, which now are not afraid to carry these cards. By the same token, the bank has increased its card business again.

This is an interesting topic. Do any of you all have some additional comments?
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[KiZ]

EFTPOS is pretty much a debit card...

Apart from the fact that many Debit cards have a minimum money outlet, mine has a minimum spend of £5 if you want to use it. I imagine EFTPOS is as low as you want.

[Zack]

In Canada, some stores only allow purchases of over $5 with debit or Visa....

[oracle]

Regarding not geting into debt with the debit card, well, some DDA accounts have "overdraft protection" which, with an approved line of credit, enables you to write a check, or debit your account, in excess of your balance, drawing on the line of credit. So it is possible to get into debt with such a debit card setup.

The only way to get into debt techincally with an eftpos card is to withdraw all your money and then use an automatic payment to take out more from your checking account, but this is of course then not using your eftpos card. It's simple - no debt. There are hefty fees for more than $25 debt. It's designed that way so kids can have them - I've had one for over 5 years.

Most debit cards come with an associated PIN. This is so you can use the card at an ATM. Why most supermarkets and other merchants require you to enter the PIN at a keypad at the register, I don't know. You don't need to enter a PIN when using a credit card. Might be some banking requirement.

The PIN is used as opposed to signing for the goods

I wrote to several banks suggesting that, by customer request, cards would be issued that would not be accepted at an ATM, and also that the cards would contain a legend to that effect. Just recently, one of the major banks here issued an additional card free to all its cardholders. The card is about one-third the size and can therefore not be inserted into any ATM, which has a mechanism to detect and allow only the standard card size. These little cards have had great acceptance by the cardholders, which now are not afraid to carry these cards. By the same token, the bank has increased its card business again.

Wow, that was good then, eh?

[Diroga]

next time i try buying anything i'll give them a hard drive and say my acount is on it.

[Moneo]

...

The PIN is used as opposed to signing for the goods

You're absolutely right, Oracle!
When you use a credit card, you traditionally sign a voucher, although most cashiers in the U.S. don't really check the signature against the card. In Mexico however, they do check.

But, with a debit card, there is no supporting voucher to be signed, so they make you enter the PIN.

Hmm, that gives me an idea. When you use a credit card at an ATM to get cash on credit, there is no voucher to sign. The handling of vouchers is a burden to most businesses, having to store the actual paper as backup for the electronic vouchers that they submit to the bank. Years ago, they actually sent the paper vouchers to the bank for payment. Anyway, the idea is: why not use the same concept as a debit card? For a credit transaction, have the customer enter the PIN associated with the credit card. This would eliminate all the voucher handling.
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[na_th_an]

In Spain we use signs, but they are not checked. If they were, I could not buy using my card as my sign is different every time I do it My bro signs with an X, I should've done that from the beginning

How can a sign imply something? I can imitate my father's, my mother's and of course my brother's. And I guess that shop assistants are not grapholocists, or whatever it is said in English (those people who can psichoanalyze you from your humble writin') (erm... grafólogos, Moneo ).

[Moneo]

Nathan,
Well. it looks like Spain is like the US regarding not really checking the signature. My wife has had her fancy signature denied several times at the supermarket here in Mexico. They're a little more careful here. But, you're right, it's mostly a formality. I don't know what would happen if you denied a transaction later, and then said: "See, the signature is not mine". Probably the bank would say OK and cancel the transaction (strike one). If you did this several times, they would probably cancel your card.

Let's face it, if the transaction and the signature was not yours, then the card was either stolen or someone in your immediate family, house or job is "borrowing" your card.

The bottom line is, yes, the signature is pretty much a formality and mostly useless. What records the transaction is the card number contained on the mag stripe of the card.

If the merchant checks the signature, it could be a deterrent to borrowed cards or stolen cards that have not been reported yet.

If someone is found using a stolen or borrowed card, there is an additional heavy penalty for forgery.
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