New computer

[red_Marvin]

So...

- AMD has a better money/speed factor
- Cheap processor with lots of memory is better...


Question:
The computer I'm interested in for now is a shuttle XPC SK41G.
Does these small computers have cooling problems?

[Hard Rock]

AMD VS INTEL war!
Just kidding. I have both an amd and an intel computer. My intel is a P4 1.8ghz dell. My AMD is an XP 1900 M(thats a 1.6GHZ mobile) custom built computer. My intel is a LOT faster, but some of that can be blamed on my SLOW 5400rpm hd and the meagre 128MB ram in it.

nathan you are reasoning well against HT, but thats only theories. I

In most cases if you have HT youll want to turn it off. The chip will run faster as 99% of applications arn't optimized for it. And youll want win2000/xp to use HT. Also read this:

You can find comparison charts in the AMD site. In most of cases, HT is outperformed even by Pentium IV without HT, I mean, in most cases (playing games, running office suites, calculation programs, etc...), AMDs perform better than Pentium IVs without HT, and Pentium IVs without HT outperform Pentium IVs with HT.

Also, nath I just realised that if HT is a gimmick then Athlon 64 too is a gimmick since very few apps are really optimized for the 64bit operations =P.

If it wernt for the fact that those 64 bit processors overcloked to 2.somthing GHZ smoke a P4 overcloked to 4GHZ(prescott) for speed.
(toms hardware bencharks)

But also a side not, toms hardware also said it was possible to overclock a northwood p4(3.0) to 4ghz with STANDARD cooling. Thats pretty crazy stuff. What their definition of standard is, i have no idea.

My friend just got a 3.06C GHz HT 800MHz FSB CPU with 512MB RAM in Dual Channel DDR400 configuration along with one of the best Radeon cards(dunno exactly which) and he could watch anime(streamed) on one of his monitors while playing UT2004 on the other without performance loss

Uh the new radeon cards can run ut2004 and 150+fps. But there WAS performance loss if not noticable. And streaming anime isnt really intensive.......

- AMD has a better money/speed factor
- Cheap processor with lots of memory is better...

It depends. Sure an AMD will cost you less for the chip, but your going to spend a lot more on cooling, meaning youlll want a decent heatsink. Even my AMD Mobile(these are supposed to be really cool) gets hot under my cheap fan/heatsink. My p4 runs cool, and VERY stable. Even under constant load it never really gets hot.

The second point, i dont really see where thats stated. how is a cheap processor with lots of memory better? you can get a celeron with more cache then some p3's, but is it gonna run faster? no seriously........ The new prescotss with 1MB cache arnt much faster then the old ones either


And your case looks fine, its uh, small. And it doesnt mention fans or processors, so uh, i cant tell you if it has cooling issues. It says it has support for 3 fans, which is probably enough(i use 1). Pay more for the cooling fans and you wont have issues. AMD's get hot, so if you get that get a decent fan.

Ive got a very similar MOBO, except i have 2 pci slots (both used). The savage8 is useless. My geforce 2mx PCI blows it away performance wise, so expect to upgrade the card.

[na_th_an]

My AMD Athlon never goes over 45ºC, and I have a plain heatsink and fan that were around $10 both.

I am defending AMD so roughly 'cause I've had my AMD Athlon XP 2000+ for 1 year now (birthday on May, 5) and the computer is still exactly like the first day. No reinstalls, no hardware problems.

And most important: no heating problems. You know, last summer we were at 52ºC here in Spain, and the computer ran fine. It is not just your heatsink and fan, but the way you arrange your case. A case fan is a great help 'cause it does not cool the processor directly but helps the processor's fan to cool it with cooler air 8) <- cool emoticon.

If you want more directions, red_marvin:

* Be sure to get an AGP 8x slot for your graphics card.
* Onboard sound is OK now (no legacy MSDOS stuff to care about as long as we have VDMSound and Windows XP), it is cheap and it sounds great (mine has EAX and 6:1 surround capabilities).
* You want Serial ATA HDDs, you want them.
* Onboard NIC cards don't give problems. All my friends have onboard NIC cards (me included) and have no problems.

My motherboard is a nice Gigabyte. It was cheap and it is really cool. 400 Mhz FSB, four PCIs, Serial ATA, integrated sound and NIC and AGP 8x, plus many more goodies (dual bios, for example).

I bought all this exactly 1 year ago. I bought: case, processor, heatsink and fan, mobo, 512 Mb 400 Mhz memory, Geforce 4 and a 40 Gb 7200 rpm HDD. I reused my CDROM drive, my disk drive, and my 30 Gb 5400 rpm HDD.

I spent exactly 360€ which is around $360.

Don't buy a premade computer: build it yourself. It is easy and it is way cheaper.

[Z!re]

I agree with Nath.

I bought my computer roughly 1.5 years ago.

It's an AMD Duron 850MHz with 128MB RAM.

I bought:
Case
Processor
Fan
Heatsink (I like that name lol)
Motherboard
128MB SDRAM (I was poor, I seriously urge you to buy twice the RAM you want, you'll get it a lot cheaper, ie: 256 vs 512, and you will need it later)
Geeforece 2 GTS
16GB HDD 7200 RPM

I spent around $300 on it.

I reused my old floppie drive, CD, monitor mouse and keyboard.

If you want to buy that too then you'd have to add roughly $150 to the total sum (unless you want an old 14" monitor)


So a new computer, custom built (you buy the parts) would cost around $500

And a non-custom built, off the shelf computer, cost? Well in sweden, when I bought my computer, the same computer cost rougly twice as much.


Custom built AMD's are the best, and cheapest alternative if you don't really care about you'r computer being 5% slower then the equivalent P4 (IT DOESENT MATTER, 5% WAS A HYPOTHETICAL "I-Pulled-It-Out-Of-My-Ass" FIGURE!)

[red_Marvin]

@Hard Rock: Sorry if I mislead you, what I meant is that
my impression of the discussion is that the difference between
1.8 and 2.6 GHz isn't much but the amount of memory is more
important for the computer's performance and AMD's are cheaper...

@Zire: AFAIK you are from Sweden as I am, would you care to
share your secret where you bought your computer?, For the
custom build part http://www.datorbutiken.com (Swedish
computer shop on the net) has a configurator where I can
choose parts...

@Na_th_an: I got a 160Gb ATA HD for birthday, so I probably won't
need SATA yet, but is SATA working with DOS? Also: What's a NIC?

For the cooling stuff: this shuttle has some sort of heatsink, and a processor cooler isn't needed, they say... hmm Maybe I should
go for a "full size" computer instead, in case I want to add more
stuff later...


@All: Which is better ATI or GeForce? (Yeah the question is more
complex than that I know...)

Why are an ATI Radeon 9600SE cheaper than a 9200 (not SE)?

[Z!re]

www.DatorButiken.com (swedish) is a good chooise.

They are a bit slow on delivery some times, it took me almost 1.5 months to get my computer. But I can take that when it cost half as much as a pre-built one.


ATI vs GeForce, I don't think either one is better, just look at their CPU speed and amount of VRAM, also the AGP bus speed is a major factor. But again, take the cheaper one, if you buy a new gfx card it really doesent matter if it's the fastest one out there, or just a cheap good one.

It's likely that you will run out of RAM before you need to replace your gfx card.


I'm on a GeForce 2GTS AGP 4x 32MB and it works fine for me.

[na_th_an]

NIC = Network Interface Card. I bet you need one

And yeah, go for a full-size computer. If you could see the size of my heatsink and fan

And Z!re, again, Pentiums are not faster than AMDs.



About ATI vs NVidia... They are better in some things, better in another ones... Buy a Radeon 9600 or a GeForce FX 5200. The "SE" version is cheaper 'cause it is less featured (mainly slower or less mem and stuff like that).

[TheBigBasicQ]

Redmarvin, you havent told us some crucial information about your *needs*. Something about which everyone was bitching around in the Linux vs Windows thread. All you told us that you would be gaming and programming. But what kinda gaming? Are you a hardcore gamer who wants to run the latest computer games in multiplayer mode via a game server? What are your expectations? Do you want an allrounder? What is your budget(how much are you ready to spend? etc...

Some of the major glitches I found in the PC you want to buy are the memory is only at 266MHz(max) that is very bad. I have tried DDR266 and the performance is appalling =(. So for gaming you must have atleast 400MHz memory(Single or Dual channel).

The mobo supports only AGP 4X. Now strictly speaking nobody has implemented AGP 8X to its max. There is a very little performance difference between 4X and 8X.

There is only 1 PCI expansion slot. This is bad. You should have atleast 4.

The PSU is only 200W. My PIII has a 250W. My P4 has a 300W. Remember if you have a high end gfx card in there and you have a low end PSU you will have trouble. Sometimes your gfx card wont work at all.

On the whole that PC isn't too good for upgradation or shouldnt be a gamers first choice. But if you are on a tight budget then I would highly recommend a AMD CPU, a good ASUS mobo, 512MB RAM and ATI Radeon 9600(SE).

But if your budget isnt tight then you should really go in for a P4 3.0C GHz 800MHz FSB with HT, Intel D875PBZ motherboard or ASUS P4P800 Deluxe, 2x256MB Dual Channel DDR400. Both the mobos have optional SATA support. Besides they have very good room to expand upon =P.

I too agree with nathan about building your own PC. I have always built my own PCs and never once have I regretted it, though I will be posting about some of my experiences with the latest one i have built on TBN and its going to be a *long* rant.

Many of the people who buy prebuilt PCs even from reputed companies like Dell have lots of complaints!

You can have a look at this page. They have built many PCs and all of them use widely available parts:
http://www.extremetech.com/category2/0,1...478,00.asp

Edit: I just noticed that mobo has VIA chips =(

Nathan I dont go by AMD's website claims.

When it comes to games, the latest Pentium 4 processors tend to perform quite better than Athlon XP chips with a comparable model number.

[adosorken]

There are so many considerations when putting together a system. To narrow it down to two or three variables simply isn't going to work. So many people in the world think that a faster processor is going to solve all their problems. Without being educated as to the whole package, they get screwed in the long run.

Most of the variables have already been discussed in this thread: processing ability, memory, cpu to ram bandwidth, tower arrangement, cooling system, etc. The arrangement of the components inside the tower is the single most overlooked detail, yet it can make quite a difference. Cooling is also very overlooked.

We had one system a few years ago that had a 32MB AGP with a small heatsink that wasn't properly mounted. The amount of heat produced by the graphics card was high enough to melt the plastic on the small electrolytic capacitors on the card next to it. Needless to say...quality of components is also a major factor.

If you're looking to run a lot of legacy stuff and not be a dork and try to do DivX encoding alongside the latest 3D game (or something equally stupid), go with an AMD. (Note to all infidels: how about some ratings on real-world usage, rather than trying to max out a system with absurd tasks that no one really uses in real life, skew the results, and root for your favorite chip manufacturer?) If you want to be a corporate puppet and you buy into the HT hype and rubbish (and also plan to be in bed with Microsoft's new anti-everything-non-MS schemes), go with a P4HT. Make sure you check the FSB ratings and buy RAM that matches it, and a lot of it if you can. Read motherboard reviews by third parties to determine the best motherboard for your new system. Get a nice high-wattage power supply (400 or better). Don't buy stuff because it's cheap...buy it because it's good.

And speaking of new stuff...I just bought a new monitor and new speakers for my dev computer. Yay! I can finally play DOS games again without hoping they have absurdly high gamma correction settings!

[Zack]

TBBQ makes a good point. Y'wanna play Doom3, or RTCW?
(btw, my 64MB Intel Integrated card, 512 MB DDR, and P4 2.4 GHZ runs RTCW fine).