Quote:This was a stupid argument from the beginning. Have you guys ever heard the phrase "There's no such thing as an original idea"? Well, there isn't. Anything you ever make in QB / FB will not be original. Every game I've ever seen in QB / FB is some kind of remake or adaptation of a game genre. You can say The Quest for Opa Opa is "original" -- but there's very little new about it. It's using a format for the text adventure genre that's been around for thirty years, and its story is just a reworking of many other stories that have already been told. SonicX is also a reworking of old ideas.
Of course there's anything new in Opa Opa, but it doesn't use any copyrighted characted nor ripped graphics.
The difference is easy with this example: We'll be coding a graphic adventure. Of course that's not original 'cause we'll be using a version of the system which Lucasarts or Sierra developed during the 80s and the 90s. But we won't be coding "Monkey Island QB". See what I mean?
This was not the point on all this talking, but anyways, let me explain myself. You can do three kinds of games, basicly: original games, remakes and sequels. All three kinds of games are OK and probably fun if they are well done.
My orignal claim was very simple: "it rocks but it would be better to me if it used a original character and storyline". Does that mean that the game is bad? NO. Does it mean that I won't play it? NO, hell. It just means that I'd rather play an original idea (as in plot/character) or at least an expansion of an already used idea.
That means that I'd rather play a SonicX which actually had a plot, original tiles and sprites, and an original storyline with levels and stuff. In its current state of art, SonicX is a engine with some fan-made levels, most of which use directly ripped tiles and sprites. Does it mean it is a bad engine? NO. It just means what it reads: I ENJOY ORIGINAL ARTWORK AND STORYLINE, and, IMHO, ORIGINAL ARTWORK AND STORYLINE INCREASES A GAME'S QUALITY.
I follow SonicX since it used SCREEN 7. For almost 6 years I've thought the same: "a new Sonic game would rock". But put stress on "A NEW".
I myself have been coding a sequel to a famous Spanish 80s game called Phantomas. It is a sequel, meaning it uses the character and game style, but not a single tile or sprite (and there are around 2000+ of them), not a single background image, sound or tune have been ripped. Does that mean that the game would have sucked if it had ripped artwork? No, but I think that everyone will agree that it is better and more valuable the way it is.
Quote:It's a pity that JB's leaving over this petty argument. I just wish people would admit it to themselves that they're just recycling ideas that have become cultural mainstays, and that they're constantly influenced by everything they see, hear and play. Just because one game is a spot-on reworking, and one takes its influences from many sources doesn't make one lick of difference in the grand scheme of things.
The problem was not that. You are picturing it as if we had fired JB 'cause he used ripped graphics. No. He has left on his own foot after not being able to bear with different opinions.
Of course, no bad feelings. I didn't like the bit that says
"If I had of been aware of some of your more complex work, then I most definitely would not have been as harsh to you as I was" 'cause it implies somehow that you will be only accept comments from supposedly knowledgeable people. My opinion doesn't rely on what I've coded before. I couldn't have made shit in my whole life and still be able to comment and have an opinion, and the right to be respected.
It's not good to face people basing your attitude on how leet they are, how many awesome stuff they coded or their degree of "legendity". I've found that many supposed "QB legends" are in fact very arogant assholes, myself included.
People who know me will know I hate doing this, but after being so shamelessly insulted, I can't not defend my dignity.
JB, in the same weasly way that I would expect of someone like him, took my email out of context.
This is the first and hopefully the last time that I will copy a private conversation to a public place.
--
Joseph Burke
to me
Hey aetherfox,
I agree with your post on qbasicnews.com pretty much 100%. While it is
about a million times as harsh towards me as I was to Na_th_an, I am
glad you wrote it. It was an entertaining read , and occasionally, I
do like to play the villain. Just so you know, I am a bit sensitive to
the lack of originality argument when it is used with respect to
SonicX. This is partly because when my project started to get well
known, I recieved many critical emails from various qb people. I still
recieve the odd one, every now and again. They argued that there was
no point to my project. They could just use Genecyst.
In response to this, I have developed a cold ability to fight back
with words. Very hurtful words, in some cases.
I hope I haven't hurt Na_th_an too much.
Out of respect for Na_th_an, I have taken the offending message down.
I would appreciate it if you could do the same.
Thanks mate,
Joseph Burke
--
Avinash Vora
to Joseph
Joseph,
You are new to this forum, and so you do not know me well enough to
realise that in 10 out of 10 times, I will be as harsh as I was in
that kind of situation to anyone. I can't say I am sorry, but I
admire the fact that you gladly accepted it, and made a full apology.
Na_th_an is an awesome guy, yet a lot of people take his good nature
for naeivity and stupidity, and so this kind of thing happens to him
alot. He won't take it personally, don't worry about that.
Because of the way you approached this, and because of the fact that
you personally contacted me, this will be the first and last time I
will edit something out of a post. I'll leave a placeholder, but
nothing from the previous content.
For the record, I still stand on my previous grounds that you could
have taken this so far with some originality in it, but it's your game
so heh.
Feel free to contact me on MSN, this email address is the same one I use on MSN.
Laters.
Avinash
--
Avinash Vora
to Joseph
Joseph,
I hope you realise that I feel like a complete idiot and quite bad to
say this, but editing out my post goes against everything I believe
in. I am sorry, but I can't do it. I will make it clear that I
understand what you have said to me.
Again, I hope you can understand.
aetherFox.
--
Joseph Burke
to me
Dear Avinash,
No problem. But, could you please edit out the bit where you say that
you think I think that I'm a "QB Legend". That really hurts.
Also, do you think I should put my message back up? I inclined to
think no, as it would continue to be hurtful to Na_th_an if it stays
up. Yet, anyone reading this forum will be pretty confused if it stays
down.
Joseph
--
Avinash Vora
to Joseph
Joseph,
As I've already mentioned, editing out sections of posts is something
I am strongly against. I don't think anyone should do it. I think
you should put your message back up. Like I've said, na_th_an is
headstrong. He'll always know how you felt at that time, just as you
know how I felt when at that time.
People have to realise that what is said to them over the internet is
not going to cause long-term brain damage. If you've said something
in the past which you might now regret, then don't take it down. When
you wrote it, you meant it. That's the way the human psyche works.
Take this for example: I wrote that I thought you took yourself as a
"QB Legend," because that is the image I got from your words. I meant
that back then. While I don't entirely agree with that now, I can't
take it down. I know it was very harsh, and I am sure in your
position I would feel the same, but imagine how much less of an impact
that post might have had on you had I left something like that out.
I am a frank and honest man. I say what is on my mind with no
regrets, and I don't like people who hide behind veils of secrecy.
I don't get angry easily, and you'll notice that the tone of my post
was sarcastic as opposed to angry. Sarcasm stings more. I know it.
I said in my post that what respect I had for you was gone. Well I
can say that you've proved yourself as not a bad guy after all.
Again, add me to MSN if you want to talk further.
Avinash.
--
I approached this in a civil way, and can't really understand why JB still carries a grudge, but the little bit of psychology I've studied and from what I've seen in people around me, some people just like to escalate their problems and try to attract attention.
Again, my apologies to my friends on this forum, I hopefully will never have to do this again.
Admins, I don't know whether you kept this open because I asked, if so, then my thanks. I've seen all that I need to. Thanks very much.
Aetherfox. Nothing in the entire email you posted justifies the fact that you didn't keep your word. I took my message down because I thought it was, in retrospect, hurtful to Na_th_an. You knew that I was very offended by your message , but you left it up.
This makes you a cruel bully, in my opinion.
But, honestly, I have no hard feelings. This is just a forum. It's not like you made a pass at my girlfriend or anything. So, relax mate, and don't worry about it.
aetherfox under your avatar is written "Violent Observer" -at least you are honest, but do you realise that sometimes you are too violent observer and go over the line?
But really -let's NOT turn this thread into another flamewar.
:roll: Eh? All this over sonic? hmm, oh well...........
As I said before...aetherFox is the wrong person to cross. Damn I hate it when people don't listen to me... :-?
What pisses me off is how self-righteous all the people are who make games with original graphics, original music, original characters, an original story, etc. They think that anyone who doesn't do the same has thereby made a game of lesser value.
I don't agree with that. I judge games by how fun and entertaining they are. Having a new, unique experience is a plus, but having a QUALITY experience is far more important -- even if it's an experience I've had many times in the past.
Besides, ripped graphics, characters, music, etc. are almost always superior to the work done by amateurs. Sonic the Hedgehog's graphics are far better than just about anything I've seen done by a QB programmer. So is the music.
So Na_th_an, when you say:
Quote:I myself have been coding a sequel to a famous Spanish 80s game called Phantomas. It is a sequel, meaning it uses the character and game style, but not a single tile or sprite (and there are around 2000+ of them), not a single background image, sound or tune have been ripped. Does that mean that the game would have sucked if it had ripped artwork? No, but I think that everyone will agree that it is better and more valuable the way it is.
I don't agree that just because you have done "original" (ie: new) artwork for your sequel, that it's instantly "better and more valuable". In my opinion, your artwork IS more valuable if it truly is BETTER than the original game's artwork...but ONLY if it actually is better. If it's a pathetic imitation of the real thing, as are most graphics done by fans, then you can't say that your work is more valuable. What would you rather see -- pathetic fan art or the superior source material that inspired it?
Quote:I ENJOY ORIGINAL ARTWORK AND STORYLINE, and, IMHO, ORIGINAL ARTWORK AND STORYLINE INCREASES A GAME'S QUALITY.
I agree with you -- but only if the original artwork and storyline are GOOD. Having original graphics and storyline is a plus if they are of high quality -- but they do not automatically make a game superior.
Just look at how many original QB games have an entirely original tilset that absolutely sucks. SonicX is superior in every aspect -- graphics, sound, gameplay and fun factor -- to those games. You can't say its graphics are worse...because they're not. They were designed by very talented professional artists who did a fantastic job. And you also can't say that this game is less fun to play...because that would be a lie. SonicX is a hell of a lot more fun than most QB platformers. I'd rather play a good clone than a bad original game any day.
:normal: diff ppl have there diff opinions on what makes and brakes a game..... Would not it be better to accept these diferences and move on with are lives? Ppl's oppinions are not going to change over a harsh battle, its human nature to defend ones right to beleave how they want,.. so really everyone is waisting time here if they are trying to make others see like them...
:roll: my 2 cents as you say, oh well....
jb, my point was, that yes, although I said that I would take it down, I realised that I couldn't do something I believe so strongly against, and so I emailed you and apologized.
Again, you are under the impression that I left the message up there to offend you. I repeat -- THIS IS NOT TRUE. I left it up because I do not believe in the idea of editing out posts for a reason completely unrelated to you. That you took that personally is not really something I would have imagined, seeing as how I actually apologized for it, or that you got so offended by it that you've escalated it to something that it is not.
Anyway, I've already expressed the fact that I wasn't upset or all that.
I wish bullies here were as nice as the ones you meet.
And while I honestly don't care, leaving a forum over something like this is shallow.
vongodric: "Violent Observer" is an analogy for honesty, and keeping people in check. I am not the kind of person that will sidestep a harsh comment into some nice euphemism. If the truth is harsh, so be it. I personally think that is a good thing, and I know that there are many people who agree with me, though not necessarily on this forum where I seem to have made a surprising number of enemies. Oh well. Life goes on.
And I don't see how this is a flamewar. Oh sure, it's a heated argument, but I'm not 'flaming'.
And Pete: What Na_th_an and I are saying is that the game COULD have been of a high quality if some effort had gone into originality. The reason that most QB games are of poor quality graphics and music wise is being of time and skill constraints. As I know it, SonicX has been in production for a long time, continually improving. Imagine if over the course of this time, it was made into a completely original game. JB can't do graphics? No problem, it takes a while but an artist can be found. JB can't make music? No problem, that is something that can be picked up with will.
You seemed to imply that you thought na_th_an and I guess myself are those "self-righteous" people you are talking about. I honestly don't know where you got that from, but I assure you, that is not us. And yes, I know na_th_an well enough to say that.
Meh.
Ado...No one listens to you eh? I do...
Anyways, I value original ideas better than stolen ideas, I value the work it takes to create a game than to copy a game, if you do this then you have little value in my eyes.
Now, I don't mind people to take a story line that is ment to be continued, like Sonic, and create there ORIGINAL game with it, different from what the companies do it. Now I think that way not only because of my values but why would I want to play a game thats aready been made before?
That is what I think.