The pope is dead.

[adosorken]

His meddling in Africa is one of the many things that he did that sickened me, as I mentioned in my original post in this thread.

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

Ok, I think I need to do some defending here. :normal:
This took a long time to type, if you whish to reply I would appreciate it that you read all of it. :wink:

does the pope goto purgatory?

Just like any other person:

If he accepted God and died without any sin on his soul then he goes strait into heaven.
Else he goes to purgetory.
But if he had full knowlege of God and still rejected him and still committed grave sin without regret than he is in danger of going to hell.

Juan Pablo II.

Ok....
1. That's not his name
2. John Paul II wasn't even his name...he had a polish name. :roll:

jesus, he was just a man as well, we dont worship him either, we love him, and understand what he did, and how it effects us.... but we only worship god

That's funny. Cause Jesus was human AND he was God. You worship God then....why don't you worship Jesus who is God?

I haven't follow much on what the pope did but from what you guys are saying....
1. He meddled in Africa + it got worste? Dudes if it weren't for him we wouldn't even know about the AIDS cristist in Africa. Also DON'T you forget that the Catholic Church has been helping many suffering people out there....and if that makes you sick well....
2. He doomed the Catholic Chuch....ok....ummm...ya....

Wonder how many millions of people he has killed indirectly with his stupid policy? Now someone tell me when did Jesus Christ tell about all this @£^$. I wish that the Church began being Christian ... I think that it's about time.

Who has he indirectly killed? Let me at him when I die if he did. :x
1. Jesus founded the Catholic Church, the other Chistian churches just broke off cause of some bad leaders. BTW that was HUMAN fault.
2. Jesus gave Peter the authority over the Church, who past it down through the popes...

Well, he was the pope when the Catholic Church admitted that the earth revolves around the sun.

Lol :rotfl: Ya. They finally forgave Gaileo.

[adosorken]

1. That's not his name
2. John Paul II wasn't even his name...he had a polish name. :roll:

1. Juan Pablo II is what he is called in Spanish.
2. John Paul II is what he is called by the rest of the world. Deal with it.

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

Ok fine I will. Cause that's what we call him.

In Latin:
Ioannes Paulus Secundus

Real Name:
Karol

[na_th_an]

He has indirectly killed millions of people in Africa. Of AIDS. Condoms stop AIDS. He forbides condoms. He tells people that they will go to hell if they use condoms. So, poor people, won't bite the hand which feeds them - i.e. they don't use codoms, so they get AIDS and they die. Easy equation.

And you may forgive me, but you are utterly wrong. The Church doesn't follow Jesus Chirst but Paul and Constantine, which invented 90% of dogmas and doctrines. For example what you have claimed about Jesus being God. That was decided in the Nicea Council. It was easier to gain adepts that way amongst the pagan Romans.

Know something? Jesus was condemned to death because of what he proclaimed: you don't have to go to a temple to talk to God. "God is everywhere, in every tree, in every stone in your way". Jesus, among other things, was killed for that, for telling people not to go to the temples. And what's precept for Catholics: go to the church. You have to go to the church every Sunday. That's a "commandment" introduced in the third century.

Karol Vojtila. If someone with his power says things like the comparison he made about homosexual couples and people who like having sex with dogs - that's dangerous. And utterly wrong, almost an aberration. Having links with the maffia doesn't help either.

[Aquarius]

He has indirectly killed millions of people in Africa. Of AIDS. Condoms stop AIDS. He forbides condoms

Bullsh!t.

First of all, he was "forbiding"[1] adultery and was pro marriage fidelity. If the people of Africa (and other continents) would really listen his words and teachings, there wouldn't be any AIDS problem right now. But he always was showing a great compassion for people with HIV.

Second, the most problem with HIV in Africa have the countries where most people are protestants, not catholics.

Third, I can't believe someone who decided to break a major commandment ("Thou shalt not commit adultery") will not use a condom, because "Papa said so". Rrrrright.

[1] Everyone has free will - it's a part of the religion. He couldn't really _forbid_ anything. He was asking us to be better. Having many partners, infidelity etc, is the real reason of AIDS and probably not considered as something bad by most people who hate the Pope.

[na_th_an]

To me, infidelity is not a relligion matter, but a social/moral matter.

In africa you can be born with AIDS. You don't have to commit adultery to get the HIV. It's been demonstrated that condoms are the best way to stop AIDS, right after not having sex at all, but, let's be serious... It's natural that sexual animals have sex. I can bet you that the 15 years old lad who has sex with his girlfriend in Africa isn't commiting adultery, but he is in great danger of getting AIDS. Can't this guy express his love? Upon the different churches, he better don't.

His words and teachings are "marry once, have sex once per kid". That's unnatural. That's what's bullshit. And if he thought that normal people were gonna follow that commandment, he was living in a world of fantasy.

Contraceptives are the answer, not "not having sex".

Most "Christian" divisions tend to forbid the use of condoms, the Catholic Church among them, for no special reason. At least for no "good reason". If you can point me to which line of the Gospel Jesuschrist forbids the use of contraceptives, I will shut up right now. But I won't shut up 'cause you won't find it.

Anyhow, this is a matter of what you believe. But his explicit repugnance about homosexuals ,considering them sick people, for example, is not.

[Aquarius]

In africa you can be born with AIDS. You don't have to commit adultery to get the HIV.

And how condoms could prevent this? And you won't have occasion to have sex, because you will die in the childhood - sad but true. Even if you would grow up after 16 years with HIV, if you would marry someone, would you risk the life (condoms don't have 100% efficiency) of the most beloved person to have sex? I think it's not coherent with the words of Pope, abstinence is the best you could do in this situation IMO. It's a very special situation, though.

It's been demonstrated that condoms are the best way to stop AIDS, right after not having sex at all, but, let's be serious...

I think the Pope was serious.

It's natural that sexual animals have sex. I can bet you that the 15 years old lad who has sex with his girlfriend in Africa isn't commiting adultery

I don't really care what you consider as adultery or not. According to the Catholic Church, it is adultery. If he does not agree with this, he shouldn't belong to the Catholic Church (he may choose another religion, which allow non-marriage sex, or be atheist, or create his own relligion).

but he is in great danger of getting AIDS

Of course, because of his own decision, which is completely NOT coherent with the teachings of the Pope. So don't tell me the obvious bullsh!t, that he won't use condoms because of the Pope or that the Pope has the blood on his hands.

Can't this guy express his love? Upon the different churches, he better don't.

If you think sex is the only way to express love, I feel sorry for you.
BTW, if someone have AIDS, not having sex would express love much more IMO.

His words and teachings are "marry once, have sex once per kid".

You are wrong, but noone is forced to belong to the Catholic Church anyway...

That's unnatural. That's what's @£^$.

OK, so you think this is unnatural and @£^$. And some people have the same feelings about homosexual sex...

Contraceptives are the answer, not "not having sex".

For you it is, for the Pope it wasn't the answer. BUT nobody forces noone to belong to the Catholic Church. And the Pope wasn't against sex BTW...

Anyhow, this is a matter of what you believe. But his explicit repugnance about homosexuals ,considering them sick people, for example, is not.

Could you quote the Pope? AFAIK he wasn't against homsexuals, he was against homosexual marriage and therefore against homosexual sex (because it's sex beffore marriage etc... wow).

What, you don't agree? Nobody forces you to be Catholic if you don't agree with the Catholic Church.

[na_th_an]

Oh, quote fest. Funny.

I'm not Catholic, thanks God. I realised the bullshit rotting his barebones at time and I could escape from the sect.

I don't agree with the Pope. As you say, if someone doesn't agree nobody is forcing you to be catholic and following the pope. But that's only true in the rich and developed countries. In a third world country you don't have true freedom, you just say yes to the first one who comes and gives you food.

Nobody forces you to be Catholic if you don't agree with the Catholic Church.

No, nobody forces me. But they are forcing those poor people in the third world, (again) indirectly. Take a complete illiterate person and tell him that if he prays and if he doesn't have sex he'll go to "heaven", a better place where he won't suffer anymore. Right now, those people live in a true HELL, plus don't have the culture to respond. They don't even think about what they tell them, they just obey. So when they tell "if you use a condom you will go to hell" guess what they do. If non-religious missioners give free condoms to the women and then the religious missioners reach and take them out... well.

(condoms don't have 100% efficiency)

Very true. It is 96% if correctly used. But it's better than 0%, the efficiency of not using one.

The problem is that it seems that you are not aware of the situation in deep Africa. The "if you don't want to get AIDS just don't have sex" is completely futile there. As soon as girls develop they are almost obligued to have sex with older males who may have the VIH. This is not a matter of choosing, those girls are almost forced to do that. Then the prostitutes, then the abused children. I dunno where you are from, but I guess you are from a developed country. In a developed country YOU CAN CHOOSE. In Africa you can't.

I know two formerly-Catholic missioners. They saw how a priest in Uganda denied food to those people who had a condom. Nice uh?

Plus you completely missed my point. My point is that the pope and the catholic church tend to surpass the things they are there for: religion. The different churches have very solid positions in nowadays topics, topics that have to do with society and science. My very point is that Jesus' message was really simple and very clear, and the Church, as time passed, was adding more and more stuff to gain economical and political power. This is a proven, historic fact that nor you nor anybody can deny, the history is there.

My grudge about Karol is also very simple: he utterly destroyed all the work of John XXIII. The council Vatican II was a big leap forwards, making the Church something more natural, closer to the people, more like Jesus had wanted. But as soon as Karol Vojtila was elected, everything was lost. I know a couple of priests who, while they are for Karol, have in mind that nowadays the Church is dangerously getting away from the society. It looks like with the last pope we returned to the times of Pio XII.

I don't deny that Karol has done good things, but he has done a lot of horrid things as well.

When I wrote "let's be serious" I meant that people simply won't avoid sex. They won't, that's all. Why? Because it comes from instinct. You can repress it, but sooner or later it comes to surface. And it does.

Love is sex, man, face it. It is in the whole world for every species. As I've said many times (backed by ... uh... that thing... ah, science!), the humans are social animals who have developed skills to survive. One of those things is love. Human children are born almost defenseless. They need parents to survive, parents who teach them how to live and how to behave. Love in a couple guarantees that (in the normal case) both parents are together at least while the child grows and developes.

Of course there's love without sex, that's friendship in different degrees. I love my friends but don't want to have sex with them. I was talking about the love in a couple, which is called, funny enough, "sexual love", because it is the thing that glues a couple during their sexual season with the only meaning of having descendence. Of course, as it feels good and it is completely stuck to love, sex can be (and should be) practiced just to express love.

You may disagree, but it is just a matter of what you believe ('cause the Church said it) against what's real, demonstrated and valid.

Note that in most cases when the couple has descendence and those kids have developed there's no more sexual love but friendship.

Your arguments are not valid to me, 'cause you are basing it in something that the Church says just because. I wonder where did they take it from. Not from Jesus Christ, be sure.

OK, so you think this is unnatural and @£^$. And some people have the same feelings about homosexual sex...

Of course, but those people are just neanderthals which I absolutely disrespect. End of conversation. Someone who has an issue with homosexuals is just sub par and retarded and I won't spend my time even thinking about that person.

It's a matter of double standards: On one hand, they don't like homosexuals 'cause they say that it is unnatural. On the other hand, they assure that we are more than animals so we can avoid sex... So... I'm puzzled, aren't you? Double standards, plain and simple. Are you all going for nature, or for human superiority? Make a decision!

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

Well, Nate, you seem to be a little misinformed about the church....

First off even from a non-Religious point of view, the late Pope was a great guy. He did many great things. Even my history teacher says so. (I go to a public school in US, if you are up on the news you'll know how picky this country is becoming about separation between church + state). This particular one just says the facts.


I'll start with your last post after mine....

1. The Nicean Council did said that he was God. But Jesus also said it. It wasn't 'decided' by them. The purpose of the Council was NOT to make stuff up, but to reilliterate what Jesus was teaching. If you look at history before it, you'll see that people within the Catholic Church were tangenting out on what they thought the Church was. Thats why the Nicean Council was.

2. Now that comdenming to death thing....that was to fufill a covent that God made with us, that we would be saved. That had to happen, He HAD to be sacrificed.

3. Jesus did NOT say to not go to the Temples. He said that you don't only have to pray there. The reason the Church says to go to church was because of the Ten Commandments God gave to Moses. 3Keep the Sabath Holy. And that was around 2,000 BC.

4. Now, you say natural sex, eh? So whats that about you taking him down for his comments on homosexuals....ironic, no?

5. Science backs the Church and the Church backs Science.

6. You CANNOT compare humans with animals.
--A. God made us in his image + likeness (ever see a baby?)
--B. We have free will
--C. To satisfy human pleasure stands in the way of your relationship with God.

7. You're right, people will not advoid sex. We sin all the time. That's why Jesus made the sacriment of Confession (Around the Last Supper time he said to his apostles: the sins you forgive are forgiven and the sins you retain are retained). He gave them the power to do it.

8. You know for someone who doesn't want have anything to do with the Catholic Church you care a lot about how the Pope 'destroyed' it...

9. You use the phrase you will go to hell too lightly AND in the wrong way. I posted before the ONLY instance that WE as humans believe you MIGHT go to hell. God has the last say.

10. You can choose anywhere. But your're saying how they are being fed 'misinformation' and leading them to the wrong conclusions. Dude samething has happened to you....

11. You keep saying that they live in a complete hell, but I don't see you helping them.

12. 1 thing. When you have nothing you find God. You live in a developed country too.