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Quote:Kevin_theprogrammer Wrote:That is what I meant by degenerate...
Err, which part?
Operating systems do not just magically fall apart, if they are properly maintained and used then they can run for years without crashing or requiring a reinstall. Of course an operating system will need reinstalling if you leave unfirewalled on the net, install all the spyware you can and delete large portions of the system directories. This is not the operating system degenerating, it is a degenerate destroying the operating system ;-) Slowing due to disk errors and fragmentation and spyware/viri problems...
Operating Systems do slow down in time, it just depends on your usage(how you use it and how many times do you use it) to when it will expiriance a noticeable slowdown.
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Quote:You miss the point. If I smash my computer with a large sledge hammer (sledge-o-matic), then of course it will be my fault. =/
No, I didn't. Andrew said that the OS is responsible for reading and writting to the storage system, which is correct. If I decided to delete the system files, then it is my fault, not the operating systems, which only did what I told it to do.
Quote:Are you still responsible for inefficient hard drive accesses, memory pooling, system garbage collecting, and everything else the OS does with no input from you?
Nope, but show me some evidence of these things happening with a standard install of any modern operating system, and then show me some evidence of those things rendering a system inoperable.
Quote:File system and memory fragmentation are, IMO, the two biggest killers
How do file system and memory fragmentation cause long term operating system deteriation exactly? You can defragment the harddrive using standard tools with most operating systems and the memory is cleared everytime you shut the machine down. Again, do these things magically happen on their own or are they controlled by the user?
Quote:Slowing due to disk errors and fragmentation and spyware/viri problems
Ugh, does anybody even read what I write? I said that we will assume that hardware faults (disk errors) are non-existant because that is not a fault of the operating system. I also said the spyware and viruses only get installed because the user does something to allow it to happen.
esus saves.... Passes to Moses, shoots, he scores!
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Quote:Ugh, does anybody even read what I write? I said that we will assume that hardware faults (disk errors) are non-existant because that is not a fault of the operating system. I also said the spyware and viruses only get installed because the user does something to allow it to happen.
Don't bother...people don't wanna learn, they don't wanna be educated, they just wanna sit in their bubble of ignorance and blame others for their own stupidity. This is the same thing that causes all of these problems in the first place. It's quite sad, really...
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Stylin: Maybe posting your edit rather than integrating it into the post would be effective...
Quote:You need to defrag the hard drive. In time the HDD gets fragmented from daily operations. Pulling info and then throwing it back on the HDD (but not always in the same place). So in time it takes longer to find info.
Quote:FALSE.
Thf lusers.....*cough*...users, do it to their own machine by installing programs they don't need and having applications start up when they turn the computer on.
Tell any of these people to create a new account and they can see what I mean. It will start up VERY fast.
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Quote:Don't bother...people don't wanna learn, they don't wanna be educated, they just wanna sit in their bubble of ignorance and blame others for their own stupidity. This is the same thing that causes all of these problems in the first place. It's quite sad, really...
To believe that a tool can be fallible is stupidity?
That's kinda stupid!:lol:
Do you work tech support? C'mon admit it!!!! :rotfl:
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In terms of filesystem fragmentation: Filesystems are divided into blocks, typically around the 1k mark. When you write to a filesystem it will divide what you are writting into block sized segments so that it can write it into the free blocks. On a fresh install most of the free blocks will be contiguous.
As files are deleted and moved around, the placement of the free blocks changes and holes may appear in the filesystems layout. When a new file is written to the disk, it may occupy a few free blocks from various places in the operating system. The reasons fragmented filesystems are slower is because the physical disk has to move around more to gather the blocks used by a file.
Unless you move and delete smaller files /alot/ you typically have very little problem with filesystem fragmentation (From memory my XP box has around 5-10% fragmentation on the filesystems). Modern harddrives have large caches which help aleviate the problem, and modern operating systems, such as Mac OS X actually defrag the filesystems on the fly. If you are really concerned about it, you can always manually defrag the filesystems yourself.
Quote:To believe that a tool can be fallible is stupidity?
Thats not what Nek and I are saying. We are questioning what the word 'tool' refers to in your sentence ;-)
esus saves.... Passes to Moses, shoots, he scores!
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Quote: Thats not what Nek and I are saying. We are questioning what the word 'tool' refers to in your sentence
One, then what are you saying?
Two, you got a mouse in your pocket named Nek? Or do you just always speak of yourself in the "royal" sense? 
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Quote:One, then what are you saying?
An operating system is a tool. A idiotic user can also be called a tool. An operating system (a tool) may degenerate because it is poorly designed. My viewpoint is that most modern operating systems degenerate because the person using them is a complete tool. I can draw you a diagram if you like ;-)
Quote:Two, you got a mouse in your pocket named Nek?
Nek = NecrosIhsan/Adosorken/Nekrophidius/et al. This type of discussion has arisen in this forum before, and Nek and I share similar viewpoints on the issue. I was also replying with a quote from Nek.
esus saves.... Passes to Moses, shoots, he scores!
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Quote:An operating system is a tool. A idiotic user can also be called a tool. An operating system (a tool) may degenerate because it is poorly designed. My viewpoint is that most modern operating systems degenerate because the person using them is a complete tool. I can draw you a diagram if you like ;-)
That won't be necessary, you've already made it completely clear what kind of tool uses your computer! :roll:
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Quote:LooseCaboose Wrote:An operating system is a tool. A idiotic user can also be called a tool. An operating system (a tool) may degenerate because it is poorly designed. My viewpoint is that most modern operating systems degenerate because the person using them is a complete tool. I can draw you a diagram if you like ;-)
That won't be necessary, you've already made it completely clear what kind of tool uses your computer! :roll:
Be a bit more respectful to Caboose and Nek... They are some of the most knowledgeable I know on the subject of computers.
A computer is a tool, like, say, a car. Now, change the oil every 3000 kilometers, drive it carefully, protect it from the elements, and it will last you a long time before it goes.Likewise, if one keeps his computer firewalled, immunized, scanned every so often for vira, spyware and defragmented every month or so, your operating system will last you a long time before you will be forced to reinstall.
But, if you drive recklessly, don't change the oil, drive with a lead foot, and don't maintain it overall, it won't last a while. So, is it the vehicle's fault if the owner is forced to buy a new one after the owner neglects to maintain it? A computer and a car are both merely machines. They do what the user wants them to do, and only what the user wants them to do. If there was no user, the operating system would not degrade. 
I'm highly amused by this thread. :lol:
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