FLU POLL... sort of..

[Rhiannon]

I think it's finding the balance, there are some herbs that can kill you (what ephedra is made out of) and there are some chemical medicines that can make people's lives better (antihistimines, AIDS meds, etc)

[adosorken]

Denying one branch of medicine simply because another provides the best treatment under optimal conditions is silly. Just like in programming, where you don't go off and code an entire GUI-based OS in nothing but assembly language (if you do, you're an idiot), you use whatever's best suited for the job. Eastern medicine has some fantastic methods, but even back in the ancient times, people died of things that have now been eliminated by western medicinal knowledge. A combination of the two branches of medicine is not only smart, but for some people, it's either necessary or it helps them to a much greater extent. Both branches seem to refuse to accept the other's principles, but as the "consumer", you have the unique opportunity to benefit from the advances of both branches of medicine. Saying one or the other sucks or is less effective is stupid.

[toonski84]

Acupuncturists are massage therapists. Like chiropractors, they can make you feel good, but for any real medicine it's fairly useless. Zack, you're young, so I'll give you that, but you dont know what a paradise you live in. 100 years ago, two thirds of people died from infecteous diseases. A common cold had the capacity to kill a man because there was no way to treat it. Smallpox killed thousands, and tuburculosis thousands more. Polio infected nearly 100,000 children each year, and even today AIDs has infected tens of millions of people, and most of them will die.

As a person who's grown up in and around medicine, and as a person who owes his sight to antibiotics and his life to brain surgery, I can tell you that if you would like to reject medicine, go to a third world country where such blessings arent available. Not just in Emergencies, but in everyday living.

[Zack]

You misunderstand me, guys.
First, Ado, I never said that western medicine sucks. And nor will you ever hear me say it. But the pharmacutical industry is using a lot of people as guinea pigs for they're medicine. I knew someone who used a type of medication, went into a coma for a few years, then died.
Toonski: Brain surgery and losing your eyesite is an emergency by me. And acccupuncturists don't cure things? You're wrong there - I had headaches for months, went to an accupuncturists, and for the next few weeks I had no headaches. The Chinese call the energy that runs through you Chi, and when you are sick, some of the energy pathways are blocked. Needles are inserted into Accupressure points to help remove those blockages.
And accupressure is not all of Chinese medicines; herbs help immensely, even though they usually taste disgusting. :wink:
What I'm saying is, if you need something like brain surgery, then Western medicine is paradise. But going to your western doctor and then he says you have cancer, and accepting radiation treatment is foolish. Radiation treatment has been around for a little while. Chinese medicine has been around for about a thousand years. Radiation treatment is not proven to help everybody. Chinese medicine isn't either, but when it does, it doesn't destroy your bowel, as it did to my grandfather.
And if you had consulted a Chinese doctor for your eyesight, Toonski, they would have prescribed herbs, and they would have certainly be effective.
Instead, you used antibiotics that are very young, and we really don't completely know what side-affects they can cause. There are no side-affects in Chinese medicine.
About the paradise thing that I'm living in: Well. yes, and for a lot more reasons than medicine. But do some reasearch, and tell me, in the far East, hundreds of years ago, were there people dying of colds and things like that? No.
And about AIDs: Sure, there's no cure for it in Oriental medicine, but if you stay healthy, you can live with it.
But I'm glad that brain surgery and antibiotics were around for you, Toonski.

[adosorken]

I didn't specifically say YOU said it sucked Zack, I was speaking in a general sense

My life personally has never required a tremendous amount of medication, aside from allergen treatments as a child, a couple of surgeries, and a series of experimental anti-depressents as a teenager. However, my legal mother saw an acupuncturist for awhile, and it really did help her problem. From what I understand about acupuncture...the reason it works is because when the skin is broken in the area, the brain produces more endorphins and I forget exactly how it works but basically, the body attempts to heal itself in that area. It's actually pretty effective and works very well to reduce or outright eliminate pain from a wide variety of problems.

The only thing I do nowadays as far as any medicinal treatment goes is the occasional Omega3 supplement. For those who don't know...Omega3 is an essential fatty acid which is virtually devoid of existence in the common first-world diet. In countries where a lot of fish is eaten, it's far more common. Omega3 is vitally important to the health of the circulatory system, and a very important nutrient for the health of your brain. One of its effects in terms of brain health is that it acts a bit like Lithium in the sense that it protects the brain cells from an overdose of calcium due to glutamate imbalance (this is one of the major factors in bipolar disorder). This overdose of glutamate and calcium intake to the brain cells causes cellular suicide. A person who is bipolar (and thus has great risk of this cellular suicide effect taking place on a regular basis) can experience slow brain damage. By the time it's noticed, it's usually too late to fix. Even Lithium, which has been shown to, amazingly, regenerate brain cells, cannot fix the amount of lost brain cells at that point. The problem has to be conquered before it even becomes a problem. The drop in Omega3 in the diet can explain many of the societical problems that have occured in the USA over the last 100 years, although that's a bit of a stretch by itself (many factors are involved, but this is a pretty big one). The US is currently conducting some pretty large studies on the effects of Omega3 with promising results but it'll be another 5 years before there's any kind of FDA-approved daily requirement for it. However, Eastern medicine had already known about this nutrient and has known about it for probably thousands of years.

So anyways...this has turned into quite the interesting discussion, has it not?

[Rhiannon]

Doctors never say that radiation therapy or chemo is for everyone. But judging by the large number of survivors of cancer, i'd say it's working quite well. You cant judge a therapy by one case. Thousands of cases have to be used in order to judge any one therapy. And yes there are side effects, and the patient is fully aware of them. Usually, depending on the cancer, surgery is considered first, then other treatments. Altho it wasnt successful with your grandfather (and i'm sorry about that), you dont know if it will save the life of another of your loved ones. One of my family members had to have a kidney transplant. The medicines were horrible at first, but after the body accepted the organ, he was able to do almost everything he did before, and was even able to see his grandkids. Other people arent so successful.

Also, the common cold did exist in China, and it prolly killed people. Usually Chinese medicine was a preventive, strengthening the immune system in order to lessen or aliviate symtoms. Also, as for Chinese medicine not having side effects, you need to understand something. Natural doesnt mean safe automatically. Caffiene is natural, and in small quantities can be somewhat useful, larger amounts are harmful. MaHuang, known on this side of the planet as ephedra, has killed people and is being pulled off the US markets and being banned by the FDA. Rhubarb root, which is a good laxative, is also not for everyone. It can make a person feel worse instead of better. Then of course, you have people who are allergic to certain herbs, sometimes to the point of shock.

As for antibiotics, what is usually used is penicillin, a substance extracted from mold. Alexander Fleming, in 1928, discovered this while doing cultures, and it saved thousands of lives during WW2 (thanks to Pfizer who manufactured it at the time). It is not a cure-all, but it has mild side effects in humans that are not allergic to it. These are usually due to the fact that good bacteria may be killed as well as infectious, then increasing the chance of getting diarrhea or a yeast infection. You usually wont die from diarrhea and you certainly wont die from a yeast infection. It is a question of give and take. If I'm prostrate in bed with a killer trachea/pharnyx/larnyx/ear infection (I had this one, very painful) and I take antibiotics, you better believe i'm not going to give a damn about whether i get a yeast infection or not. I can deal with a yeast infection, i cant deal with a upper respiratory infection.

Now, dont think i'm dissing Chinese medicine, i'm sure it has its advantages, and those that are SKILLED fully in this type of medicine success in bringing health and relief to its patients. But around the world there are other "medicine men" that do the same. Think african, south american, native american. Just as all these have cured/helped people, so has Western medicine saved many lifes.

As for AIDS, it's easy to say "as long as you can stay healthy, you can live with it" when you dont have it. It is 500% harder to stay healthy with AIDS than without it. Anything, from the household pet to a fly on your hot dog can send you to the hospital. Modern medicine has looked for a cure, a vaccine, or anything that can help these people live a more secure life, without having to worry about what dust particle or fly will land them in the hosptial next.

And yes, pharmacutical companies use humans as test subjects after strict test studies with animals, from mice to primates. Human subjects are on a volunteer basis, unlike animals (). When a medicine is released to the public, it comes with a list of potential side effects found when conducting tests on animals and/or humans. Drugs are only released when the companies have proven that the drug can treat a condition with acceptable risks in the majority of its test subjects. There are a few humans that can suffer severe or deadly effects which were not present in lab studies. Then other things must be looked at. Was the person using other drugs, drinking, bad heart, and the list goes on. The media has a tendency for overpublicising problems (kinda like when a plane crashes, they make it sound like it happens everyday and makes people freak) and dont tell you the thousands of people it helps to have a better life.

[Zack]

Ado: 1) Sorry, I misunderstood you. 2) Have lots of flax seed oil. Tastes amazing, and is full if Omega3's.
Rhia: Ephedra was used in China for thousands of years with no problem. Then western doctors take it, and it poisons people. The answer is moderation.
I'm not denying that penicillin (or any antibiotic) is all bad. But another example, my brother was given an antibiotic, and got very uncomfortable side-affects. Did the doctors say anything about such things? Of course not!
And my grandfather very recently went to the doctor that recommended radiation treatment, and told him that he had all this discomfort afterwards (meanwhile he was just in the hospital for two weeks because of a damaged bowel from radiation), and the doctor said "You're lucky." It's plainly irresponsible.

[Rhiannon]

Then your problem isnt the treatments, it's the irresponsible doctors, and you will get that in every profession. It is inevitable.

[adosorken]

Yeah, flax seed oil is an excellent source of Omega3.

Penicillan can cure a number of things for a number of people. For me, the only thing it can cure is the fact that I live and breathe (aka it's fatal).

Another problem is that people don't always listen to their doctors. I can make a strong case in point about this one...my ex fiancee. After major surgery in February of 2003, she decided not to listen to the doctors about how much medicine to take and how to take care of herself post-surgery. She is now buried next to her father in Bangor Pennsylvania.

[Zack]

Oh man, Ado. I'm sorry to hear that, man, really.
So...you mean that you're allergic to penicillin?
And Rhia: If all western medicines were used responsibly, then there wouldn't be a problem.